marriage of Isaac Abrahams and Martha ?.

[Bookbox]

can you tell me where you found their marriage record?

Pending Justin's return, try here ...

http://synagoguescribes.com/blog/person-details/?value=4371

[amygdc]

Thanks found it! only problem is why is she called Elizabeth and not Martha (as on the birth cert) and theyh are 25 on 1841 census (they should have been 30).... everything else matches

[Bookbox]

theyh are 25 on 1841 census (they should have been 30).... everything else matches

Ages are unreliable in 1841. Census enumerators in 1841 were instructed to round down all adult ages (over 15) to the nearest 5 years. This didn’t always happen, but where it did, someone recorded as aged 25 could be anything up to 29, assuming their age was correctly reported in the first place.

only problem is why is she called Elizabeth and not Martha (as on the birth cert)

It might be unwise to assume Elizabeth and Martha are the same person. As was pointed out above, there are possible deaths for Elizabeth ABRAHAMS in the 1840s.

On the birth certificate for Mark Abrahams, her name is Martha Abrahams formerly Levy later Martin....

Martha’s names as given on Mark’s birth certificate imply her maiden name was LEVY and she was previously married to a MARTIN. There is a possible marriage for Martha LEVY to Abraham MARTIN in 1839. I think this is Martha and her family in 1841.

1841 census
HO107/717/ 8 folio 9 page 9
Love Court, Whitechapel
Abraham Martin, 20, General Dealer, Y
Martha Martin, 25, Y
Hannah Martin, 9, Y
Abraham Martin, 7, Y

You will see they are in Love Court, as were the ABRAHAMS family in that census. There are possible deaths for Abraham MARTIN in the 1840s. Maybe Martha took up with Isaac ABRAHAMS after that?

In the 1851 in Hutchison Avenue, Abraham LEVY aged 17 could be the same person showing in the 1841 as Abraham MARTIN aged 7. Hannah PHILLIPS could be the same person showing in the 1841 as Hannah MARTIN (there is a possible marriage in Mar Qtr 1851 in St Lukes, with Hannah LEVY and Samuel PHILLIPS on the same page). Given their ages, both Abraham and Hannah were probably Martha LEVY’s children from before her 1839 marriage to Abraham MARTIN.

Just a suggestion.

[Bookbox]

Looking more closely, I see that 2 people were omitted from the 1851 transcript of 8 Hutchison Avenue posted in reply #1 above – Sarah MARTIN, 9, and Maria MARTIN, 7.

[amygdc]

Thanks Bookbox, that is so helpful! So now my theory is as follows
Isaac married Elizabeth Levy 1st and has 6 children (maria appears with him in 1841 and again in 1851).
Martha marries Abraham Martin 1st and has 4 children who are then with her on the 1851 census.
Isaac Abrahams and Martha then marry between 1847 and 1848 (Elizabeth dies 1847 and Abraham Martin dies 1844) Thesed dates work with the dates of all the births of the respective children. Isaac and Martha then have 3 more children from 1848 onwards (mark, angel and maria - on 1851/1861 census). I think that Martha could have been Elizabeth Levy's sister, as she names the last baby Angel (possibly after her father Angel Levy). They are all living in Love Court. It is possible that Isaac Abrahams and Martha Martin/Levy do not get re-married officially as Martha later refers to herself as Martha Martin (1871 census living with son Mark Abrahams and wife Sarah). This would explain why I cannot find their marriage anywhere.

[Bookbox]

Isaac married Elizabeth Levy 1st and has 6 children (maria appears with him in 1841 and again in 1851).

Abraham, Rachel, Maria, Martha, Israel and Joseph, plus any others who may have died before 1841 and any others who may have been born and died between 1841 and 1851.

Martha marries Abraham Martin 1st and has 4 children who are then with her on the 1851 census.

I think Martha first has 2 (possibly illegitimate) children with an unknown partner -- Abraham LEVY c1832 and Hannah LEVY c1834. Then, with Abraham MARTIN, she has Sarah MARTIN 1841 and Maria MARTIN 1843.
 

Isaac Abrahams and Martha then marry between 1847 and 1848 (Elizabeth dies 1847 and Abraham Martin dies 1844) Thesed dates work with the dates of all the births of the respective children.

I don’t believe Isaac and Martha married (see below). The deaths may be correct, but you can’t be sure without getting the certificates.

Isaac and Martha then have 3 more children from 1848 onwards (mark, angel and maria - on 1851/1861 census).

I think just two children – Mark ABRAHAMS 1848/9 and Angel ABRAHAMS 1850. The daughter Maria is 18 in 1861 and is probably the daughter of Abraham MARTIN (shown as aged 7 in 1851).

I think that Martha could have been Elizabeth Levy's sister, as she names the last baby Angel (possibly after her father Angel Levy). They are all living in Love Court.

Agreed.

It is possible that Isaac Abrahams and Martha Martin/Levy do not get re-married officially as Martha later refers to herself as Martha Martin (1871 census living with son Mark Abrahams and wife Sarah). This would explain why I cannot find their marriage anywhere.

I think they never married. Up to 1907 it was illegal to marry a deceased wife’s sister (though that didn't stop people doing it).

In order to firm this up you will need to order the 1839 marriage certificate for Martha to Abraham MARTIN (hopefully!), to get the full details and confirm her father's name.

[amygdc]

"I think Martha first has 2 (possibly illegitimate) children with an unknown partner -- Abraham LEVY c1832 and Hannah LEVY c1834. Then, with Abraham MARTIN, she has Sarah MARTIN 1841 and Maria MARTIN 1843."

Both children Hannah and Abraham are named as Martin on the 1841 census? (although they would have been born prior to the marriage if the 1939 marriage is the correct one) Did you find that on ancestry or on synagogue scribes? I cannot see it.

Also I am sure we have the correct Isaac Abrahams because on his marriage to Elizabeth, his father is named as "Abraham our father" which is what they put for converts. Legend in our family is that he came from a family in Wales and surname was originally Morgan...

[Bookbox]

Both children Hannah and Abraham are named as Martin on the 1841 census?

It was very common for stepchildren to be enumerated in the census with their stepfather's surname instead of their own. But in 1851, Abraham has the surname LEVY. Also, the possible GRO index entry in 1851 for the marriage of Hannah to Samuel PHILLIPS has Hannah's unmarried name as LEVY (if that is the correct marriage).

( ... if the 1939 marriage is the correct one) Did you find that on ancestry or on synagogue scribes? I cannot see it.

The possible 1839 marriage is in the GRO marriage index, which can be accessed (free) at FreeBMD.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk

I haven't found the full marriage details online, and I think you will probably need the certificate to establish Martha's identity for certain.

ADDED – be sure to order any certificates through the GRO’s own certificate site and not through any commercial supplier. The official site is much cheaper (£9.25) and generally much quicker.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content