Cumming in Carmunnock - Cathkin - East Kilbride area

[Forfarian]

I am hoping that the Kirk session records will be made available online soon so I can possibly determine the name of the father. Anybody have an idea how soon before these records will be available?

Don't hold your breath. I think the problem is that the KS records would have to be indexed in some way before they could release them, and that would be an enormous undertaking. Often a particular 'case' appears several times in the minutes, so it's not just a matter of homing in on a single entry - you could have the mother being summoned, refusing to say who the father is, then being summoned again and again and eventually naming him, then the father might be in a different parish so they would have to contact the KS there and have him summoned, then correspondence between to two KSs, and then perhaps both appear together and he denies being the father, so then they gather evidence, summon witnesses and record what the witnesses say, and so on and so forth.

(I have one 'case', concerning the arrival in the world of my 3x grandfather in 1794, that dragged on for over a year in the KS and the civil courts - and the last word in the KS minutes was, "The Moderator reported to the Session that he had laid the case .... before the Presbytery who left it till God in his Providence show more light on the matter and referred it to Session to take any proof that should be advanced." How frustrating is that?)

[sancti]

How did you confirm that the family came from Carmunnock?

Is this Robert in 1861?

Robert Cumming

Birth Year: 1842

Born: Scotland


Home in 1861: Flos, Simcoe, Canada West

Religion: Free Church

[brucecumming]

How did you confirm that the family came from Carmunnock?

Is this Robert in 1861?

Robert Cumming

Birth Year: 1842

Born: Scotland


Home in 1861: Flos, Simcoe, Canada West

Religion: Free Church

Well Robert and the others are known I believe through family info passed on to be from Carmunnock, a long with the blue book info referred to previously. Birth records, wills and records like farm horse tax and hearth tax records all point there.

Yes, that is the correct census entry you found. I looked up the other ones I found. The birth year is never exact. Here is a complete list of records I have for Robert Cumming:

1861 census - age 19 (implies 1842 birth)
1871 census - age 30 (1841)
1881 census - totally unreadable
1891 census - age 50 (1841)
1901 census - states birth date Sep 16, 1841
1911 census - states birth Sep 1840
Died 1914 (no record found)
Marriage record Jan  17, 1871 - age 26 (1845)

Thank you.

Terry

[brucecumming]

Don't hold your breath. I think the problem is that the KS records would have to be indexed in some way before they could release them, and that would be an enormous undertaking. ...

Thanks a lot for that insight. I imagined indexing the records was the hold up - but I guess if you are local you can just peruse the KS records sequentially?

I did acquire a small publication "Kirk Life in Old Carmunnock" which did delve into the records somewhat and give a flavor of what they were like. I get the the impression that this kind of info can help move genealogical research more from fact gathering into understanding the culture and people better (if you are lucky of course - in your case it sounds not so lucky).

Thanks.

Terry

[sancti]

Was Daniel McKernan a shoemaker?

With the variance of ages in the census records, the likelihood is that Robert was not born at the time of the 1841 census and the family may not have been living in Carmunnock at that time

[Forfarian]

I guess if you are local you can just peruse the KS records sequentially?

Yes, sort of and depending on where they are actually held.

The actual books were all in the National Archives of Scotland (now part of the National Records of Scotland). They have now been digitised. Many of the original tomes have been transferred to local archives, for example the Highland ones are now in Inverness and the Aberdeenshire ones are in Aberdeen. This process depends on the local archives showing that they can store and look after the books properly. If not, then the books stay in Edinburgh.

However the local archives that have got their books back also have access to the digitised versions, and not only those for their own area, but for all over. So you can view the Lanarkshire Kirk Sessions in Aberdeen, or the Caithness ones in Glasgow, and so on. Very useful for sparing you a trip to the other end of the country

[brucecumming]

Was Daniel McKernan a shoemaker?

With the variance of ages in the census records, the likelihood is that Robert was not born at the time of the 1841 census and the family may not have been living in Carmunnock at that time

Yes, the Daniel McKernan that Agnes Cumming married was a shoemaker as far as I know (based on census records).

Thanks for your assessment - I think that is all quite possible or even probable.  I understand the 1841 Scottish census was taken June 6, 1841. If Robert Cumming was born Sep 1840 then he would have been 9 months old. If born in Sep 1841 then Agnes would have been several months pregnant with him.

Terry

[brucecumming]

Yes, sort of and depending on where they are actually held.

The actual books were all in the National Archives of Scotland (now part of the National Records of Scotland). They have now been digitised. ...

This is good to know. I am in Canada so the trip would be long whether the records are in one place or the other! Perhaps some day if I don't get any further I would consider paying someone to look through the records. Of course, as @sancti said, if the family was no longer there, then the search could be fruitless.

Terry

[sancti]

The 1861 census has Agnes as an RC which would be unusual for an 1840s Presbyterian to change religion to RC.

Do you have Robert on the 1851 census with the McKernans?

There doesn't appear to be any official documents linking the Cumming family to Carmunnock parish