Author Topic: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester  (Read 26480 times)

Offline OrganicJohn

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #27 on: Friday 20 May 11 10:51 BST (UK) »
Hello Aniseed
Good to have your response so quickly.I must have jumped to the wrong conclusion about Ann Morgan being married to William Brimmell.I did not know that Henry Morgan Briiell was related to William Brimmell on account of Elizabeth Brimmell being the boy's mother.A lot of the other imformation about the Morgans was new to me as well.Thanks very much!In the will John Drigue Morgan mentions his friend Henry Roche Osborn.Perhaps he was related to Peter osborn husband of sister Elizabeth.I had assumed that Henry Roche Osborn was her husband.I would be interested to know how you have found out about the Morgan sisters,as I had drawn a blank with them. Interested to see that David Walter Morgan was vicar of Little Leighs,Essex as well as being Priest in Ordinary at the Chapel Royal,Westminster.I suppose in those days positions in the C of E wre rewarded with a high salary for doing very little.I have been trying to establish a connection between the Morgans and the fabulously wealthy Olmius family descended from Herman Olmius ,Belgian Huegenot merchant who settled in London in the 17th century.His wife's surname was Drigue.There must be a link as John Drigue Morgan was awarded an annuity from Drigue Olmius descendant of the Olmius dynasty who owned several properties in Essex.Some were buried at Great Leighs.
Morgan in London.Brimmell in Gloucester.Truman in London and Norfolk.Spratt in London,Stroud,and U.S.A.Berriman in London,Cornwall,and Australia.Steer in London.Blackburn in Essex.

Offline Aniseed

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #28 on: Friday 20 May 11 15:49 BST (UK) »
If you go into Google books and type in John Drigue Morgan's father's name, David Walter Morgan, then quite a lot of hits show up (at least they did when I did this a couple of years ago...Google books seems to be showing a lot less these days). I shall try to let you know what I found then.

I looked into the whole John Drigue Morgan and his ancestors bit. Here's what I came up with...

...the following was gleaned from this website http://thepeerage.com/p20434.htm

John Olmius 1st Baron Waltham married Anne Billers daughter of Sir William Billers (Lord Mayor of London) Their children were Elizabeth Olmius d. 12 June 1797 and Drigue Olmius 2nd Baron Waltham who died on 10 Dec 1786 with no issue. Elizabeth Olmius married John Luttrell-Olmius 3rd Earl of Carhampton, who was the son of Simon Luttrell 1st Earl of Carhampton and Judith Maria Lawes. Their children were John Luttrell d. April 1769 and James Luttrell d. 1772, who sadly both died young, and Lady Frances Maria Luttrell b.1768. There were therefore no surviving male heirs.

After Elizabeth died in 1797, John Luttrell-Olmius married Maria Morgan, born c.1777 daughter of John Morgan (Recorder of Maidstone), which is presumably where the Morgan connection comes in. Their daughter was lady Maria Anne Luttrell b. May 1799 d 14 Nov 1861. John Luttrell-Olmius 3rd Earl of Carhampton died 18 January 1857 at Brighton, Sussex. It’s interesting to note that John Luttrell –Olmius was born John Luttrell, and only added the Olmius to his name by Royal Licence on 3 April 1787. Elizabeth Olmius’s brother Drigue Olmius, the 2nd Baron Waltham died in December 1786 without issue. Wikipedia gives his death year as 1787, but it also says that John Luttrell "assumed by Royal license the additional surname of Olmius as a mark of respect for his father-in-law. However, the earldom and its subsidiary titles became extinct on his [John Luttrell-Olmius] death in 1829." I think it might possibly have been the allure of the title as much as respect for his father in law that prompted the name change, but I think I'm getting cynical in my old age!

Simon & Elizabeth Luttrell-Olmius’s surviving daughter, Lady Frances Maria Luttrell b. September 1768 (presumably she was not called Luttrell-Olmius because her father had not yet changed his name at the time she was born), married Sir Simeon Stuart 4th Baronet Stuart, of Hartley Maudit, Southampton, in 1789. Their children were
   Ann Luttrell Stuart d.9 Mar 1813
   Sir Simeon Henry Stuart 5th Bt b.23 October 1790 d. 23 October 1868
   Captain William Frederick Stuart b.30 may 1794 d. 6 December 1878
   Barclay John Stuart b. 26 June 1796 d. 1813

So we have a few clues here. John Drigue Morgan (JDM) mentions lady ffrances Stuart and her son Sir simeon Stuart Bt in his will. Lady Frances' uncle was called Drigue Olmius, and her step mother was a Morgan. Moreover, from JDM's will we know that he was receiving an annuity of £50 per annum from the Essex estates of the late Lord Waltham, who was Lady Frances' grandfather.

Here's the relevant bit from JDM's will for anyone reading who doesn't have a copy:
"I have an annuity of £50 pr anm from the Essex estates of the late Lord Walthams will / as may be seen by an extract from it in my possession / which becomes due on Lady & Michaelmas days tho’ not paid till the June and January following the arrears due from the same will be paid by Mr Beatty of No 4 ?Punip? Court Temple who is the solicitor to Lady ffrances Stuart and to her son Sir Simeon Stuart Bt "

When I researched this a couple of years ago, I copied the following from a website called www.cressingtemple.org.uk, but it seems no longer to be available. After saying that Cressing Manor (in Essex) was supposed to have belonged to King Harold before the Norman Conquest, there's a bit more detail, and then this is the crucial bit:

"Cressing Temple passed to a Dutchman Herman Olmius in 1703. It was dismantled in 1794. The site passed to Lord Waltham and his descendants and between 1758 and 1842 the Grimwood family maintained a stable tenancy. After 1842 when the property passed to WFH Stuart, great nephew of Drigue Billiers Olmius, Lord Waltham, the site saw a transformation with several stock buildings being erected in the barnyard …”

So those are the estates in Essex which gave JDM his £50 pa annuity. For Lord Waltham to have remembered JDM in his will, he must have been either related, or a good friend of the family. I suspect that he was somehow related through Maria Morgan, John Luttrell-Olmius' second wife. She was reputedly the daughter of John Morgan the Recorder of Maidstone, so how is she related to JDM?


Offline Aniseed

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #29 on: Friday 20 May 11 17:22 BST (UK) »
John Drigue Morgan's father, as we know, was David Walter Morgan. Who was his father, and how is he related to Maria Morgan who married John Luttrell-Olmius?

A search of ancestry.co.uk's Oxford University Alumni 1500-1886 yields this: "Morgan, David Walter, s. William, of St George’s, Southwark, pleb. HERTFORD COLL., matric. 14 June 1759, aged 25.” Which tells us that this David Walter Morgan’s father was called William. A note in “The Marriage, Baptismal, and Burial Registers of the Collegiate Church or Abbey of St Peter, Westminster” Published 1876, somewhat peevishly records that there’s no record of anyone of that name ever graduating. “Rightly David Walter Morgan and so called on his monument, erected by his only surviving son, Col. John-Drigue Morgan, which described him as Doctor of laws, minor canon of the Abbey, priest in ordinary of the Chapel Royal, and Vicar of Little Leights, co. Essex. One of his names matriculated at Oxford, from Hertford College, 14 June 1739, aged twenty-five as son of William Morgan of St George’s Southwark on Surrey, but his name does not occur in the lists of graduates either of Oxford or Cambridge and this man as Rev. Dr Morgan…” and there the snippet tantalisingly ends.

However, it seems to me that he may well have matriculated for a higher degree, such as his Doctor of Laws. Maybe the person who wrote the note didn’t check out the graduation lists for higher degrees.

I have a note from my original research that says a Google Books snippet preview for Notes and Queries page 434 1940 showed the following: "David Walter Morgan, d. Mar.Ii 1795 aged 61". That's all the information there was. I do wish sometimes that Google Books snippet view wasn't so gnomish. Still, If David Walter Morgan died in 1795 aged 61, that would put his birth in about 1734ish.

A search of Ancestry's London Metropolitan Archives gives two intriguing results. David Walter Morgan, son of William Morgan and Elizabeth was born on 21 February 1733, and was christened a day later at St George the Martyr in Southwark on 22nd February 1733 (that's in the old calender, where new year was 25th of March) and then baptised at St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey on the 21st February 1733. That seems a bit odd to me, is christnening and baptism technically different? I suppose that it's possible that there were two couples named William and Elizabeth Morgan one living in St George's Southwark, and the other living in Bermondsey, both of whom had a son named David Walter Morgan in the spring of 1833. How likely that is, I can't really work out. The trail goes a bit cold there, because there are too many possibilites for the birth of William Morgan, that I can't tell who his parents were, unfortunately. Have you got any further back, Banana Doctor? It seems to me that the probable answer to the question of how Maria Morgan and John Drigue Morgan might be related may well lie there.

From “Allegations for Marriage Licences Issued from the Faculty Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury at London 1543 to 1869”, also found on Google Books, “Dec. 6 David Walter Morgan of St Martin in the Fields Middlx, Clerk, Bachr.” There's an IGI on Family Search which gives a record for David Walter Morgan marrying Mary Adams 11 December 1758 at St Martin in the Fields, Westminster. This means he was married when he matriculated. I think it was unusual for a man to matriculate when he was already married, although if he was studying for a doctorate, that may not be so odd.  It’s always possible that this David Walter Morgan is someone else entirely from the one who was John Drigue Morgan’s father. If you look here http://eagle.cch.kcl.ac.uk:8080/cce/persons/ you'll find that David Walter Morgan was ordained as a priest in 1758, that's before he matriculated, and the same year as he was married.

On Google books I found a snippet from something called The Old Cheque-book which said "John Higgate – David Walter Morgan was sworn into his place in the Chapel Sept. 17, 1761 (MS. Chapel Royal). I suppose that means he was sworn into office at the Chapel Royal in 1761. We don't know in detail from that what that particular office was. Although this page on the British History website http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43826 which is about the Chapel Royal, shows that Morgan D.W. is listed as being Confessor on 17 September 1761. If you scroll down to the bottom and read Footnote 5 it says:

"See the corroborating testimony of Rev. David Walter Morgan in 1784: ‘a Place by many supposed a Sinecure but instead thereof, the Duty attending it is very hard indeed; the Confessor being obliged to visit all the sick in the House Baptize all Children born therein and Read Prayers at Eight o'clock every day in the week both Winter and Summer as also administer the Sacrament every Sunday morning'"

So that’s obviously what he was doing in 1861.


Offline Aniseed

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #30 on: Friday 20 May 11 17:23 BST (UK) »
On The Victoria History of the County of Sussex website http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56914 it says that the advowson for the church of Ilford and the rectory of Kinston near Lewes was sold in 1765 to David Walter Morgan by the trustees of James Weekes, and David Walter Morgan and his wife Mary conveyed it to Francis Laprimaudaye in 1772. Apparently an advowson is "The right to recommend a member of the Anglican clergy for a vacant benefice, or to make such an appointment." So it looks like he might not actually have been the vicar there, he was just able to choose the vicar. I'm not quite sure why you'd want that, unless you wanted to give it to one of your children perhaps.

If you look on Google books and search the Oxford Magazine or University Museum volumes 3-4, you'll find an intriguing entry for David Walter Morgan on a page headed "A List of Freeholders who voted for Colonel Luttrell at the election for Middlesex April 13, 1769" He is listed as being the Confessioner of the household at St James's Palace, which is interesting in several ways. He obviously has a link with the Luttrells, even if it's only voting for them, although that’s a fairly weak link, I have to say. There must be something more than that.

A tantalising clue comes yet again from Google Books. I found this snippet, agonisingly short, and with no explanation as to what it meant, from Essex Review: An Illustrated Quarterly Record of Everything of Permanent Interest in the County 1895. It's some sort of list, in which appears David Walter Morgan, the date 23 July 1778, and in the next column it says "Rt. Hon. Drigue Billers Olmius, Lord Waltham, Baron of Philipstown, John Drigue Lernoult, Esq, and Henry Evans, clerk.” In the entry underneath that one it says "John Portis   21 May, 1795   Hon John Luttrell Olmius" I wish I knew what it was all about, but it's just snippet view, and you can't look at the whole book. But it's a link between John Drigue Morgan's father and Drigue Billers Olmius, Lord Waltham. Quite what that link is, we don't know. It might be something to do with the land in Essex that yielded John Drigue Morgan his £50 annuity, I suppose.

I also found a while ago: from 'Handel and the English Chapel Royal Supplementary lists:- Members of the other London Choirs 1700-1760 who did not hold Chapel Royal offices during the same period' W31 David Walter Morgan, Chapel Royal 17-9-1761P Confessor, Westminster Abbey 3-12-1756 LV, Death 12-3-1795  I interpret this to mean that he was appointed to Westminster Abbey on 3rd December 1756, he was appointed as the Confessor at the Chapel Royal (not sure if that's St James's Palace or not) on 17 September 1761, and he died on 12th March 1795.


This is a heck of a lot of information, and you may well already know bits of it, or indeed most of it. I just wanted to put it all here for you, and for anyone else who might pop in later who’s interested in John Drigue Morgan and his ancestry.


Offline OrganicJohn

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #31 on: Friday 20 May 11 21:17 BST (UK) »
Hello Aniseed
Wow!I am rather overwhelmed with all that imformation.
One answer I do have concerns David Walter Morgan,s matriculation.He first matriculated at Clare college,Cambridge in1753 then ordained deacon(london) June13,1756 then matric.from Hertford college,Oxford,June 14 1759 (age 25).Amongst a list of people you found alongside David Walter Morgan was Adrian Lernoult.He married Margaret(Margreta) Olmius in1793.She was a daughter of Herman Olmius who had married Judith Drigue.They had 9 children born between 1696 and1710,listed on IGI familysearch but no details given of marriages.It is possible that one of them married a Morgan.Margaret had at least two brothers one John Olmius(1678-1731) whose only son also John(1711--1762) became 1st Lord Waltham,and also Herman.(1684--1726).I can find nothing on him so he could provide a possible link with the Morgans

Morgan in London.Brimmell in Gloucester.Truman in London and Norfolk.Spratt in London,Stroud,and U.S.A.Berriman in London,Cornwall,and Australia.Steer in London.Blackburn in Essex.

Offline OrganicJohn

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #32 on: Friday 20 May 11 21:33 BST (UK) »
Obviously the name Morgan suggests a Welsh connection historically.I think it is in a letter to sister Elizabeth rather than in the will,that JDM mentions "two farms near Carmarthen" that might benefit sister Ann (presumably from their sale)This interests me particularly as I have been living in West Wales for past 20 years.I was brought up in the home counties and both my parents families were Londoners,my paternal grandmother who was the youngest daughter of Henry Morgan Brimmell, the youngest son of the Henry Morgan Brimmell whose history we have been exploring. I do not have any other possible Welsh connection as far as I know.
Morgan in London.Brimmell in Gloucester.Truman in London and Norfolk.Spratt in London,Stroud,and U.S.A.Berriman in London,Cornwall,and Australia.Steer in London.Blackburn in Essex.

Offline bananadoctor

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #33 on: Friday 20 May 11 22:06 BST (UK) »
Dear Organic John,

It was good to hear that we share a common ancestor in Henry Drigue Morgan, the son of the illustrious John Drigue Morgan, who went to the West Indies to help the fight against the Americans in the War of Independence , fought the French in India, the Dutch in Ceylon and sailed in command of marines on the newly captured French prize-ship 'Generaux' (given to Thomas Cochrane 'the Sea Wolf' by Nelson to sail to Minorca, where our Drigue was stationed). Pity he didn't marry poor Elizabeth Brimmell, who may have been his servent in Gloucester. However, I guess she was far below him on the social scale.

I too had discovered our Drigue's relationship with the Barons Waltham. The first Baron of Waltham was called John Olmius II. He died the same year (1750) that John Morgan (the uncle of David Walter Morgan, who was the father of John Drigue Morgan) was appointed by him as rector of Little Leighs in Essex  David Walter Morgan was appointed rector of Little Leighs himself in 1778 by the second Baron of Waltham, whose name was Drigue Belliers Olmius III. I guess David gave the middle name 'Drigue' to his son in honour of his patron.'

The family of David Walter Morgan may never have lived at Little Leighs, as it was an absentee position and local curates or officiating ministers acted for them. I suppose he was busy in London as Confessor to the Royal Household and doing his bit for the Chapel Royal  Incidentally, David graduated from Hertford College in Oxford on 14 June 1759 aged 25 and was ordained a priest in the Palace Chapel at Bromley Palace by Zachery Pearce, the Bishop of Rochester, on 16 July 1758. David's father was a William Morgan of St George's, Southwark. I have been unable to trace him, but he must have been wealthy to have sent his son to Oxford.

The military history of John Drigue Morgan is interesting and is available on different websites if his name is punched into the search engine. I note he was granted leave in 1802 by HRH C in C, which would have been either George, Prince of Wales (later George IV) or his brother Frederick of York.

I also have the will of John Drigue Morgan and noted that he had two sisters, Ann and Elizabeth. It was Elizabeth he seemed to care much for and she married an Osborn(e).

How are you related to Henry Morgan Brimmell? I am related through his son Henry Morgan Brimmell born in Worcester in 1840, his son William Henry Morgan Brimmell born in Glouceter in 1863 and his son Henry Carter Brimmell born in Stroud in 1885.

I have been indepted to 'Ainseed'  for following up what happened to Elizabeth Brimmell and her siblings plus parents. I haven't caught up yet because I have been busy with my parents who are unwell. I intend to send a msessage to Aniseed as soon as I can.

Best regards,

Bananadoctor

P:.S I sent a similar mesage earlier, but for some reason it didn't get posted. I note that there has been more progress since it was written.


Offline bananadoctor

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 21 May 11 08:58 BST (UK) »
Dear Organic John,

I must be going senile. The opening sentence in my last posting should have read - 'It is good to hear that we have a common ancester in Henry Morgan Brimmell........'  However, I did get it right further down!

The baptism of Henry Morgan Brimmell was recorded on 27th July 1817 at St Mary de Lode's church in Gloucester. Elizabeth's second name is written as 'Brimhall' and her occupation as 'servent'. 'Brimhall' is propbly how the officiating minister, who coincidentally was 'G Morgan', spelt the word after hearing it from Elizabeth in a west country accent. 'Servent'  is what made me think that she may have been an obliging housekeeper to our illustrious John Drigue Morgan. Perhaps she was swept off her feet by a dashing older man?

Cheers,

Bananadoctor


Offline OrganicJohn

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Re: Brimmells -rope makers from Gloucester
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 21 May 11 09:59 BST (UK) »
Dear Bananadoctor
You did well finding the birth of Henry Morgan Brimmell snr. to Elizabeth Brimmell.I made a number of trips to Gloucester from West Wales and searched unsuccessfully at the Record Office and Family Record Centre.Part of the time was wasted looking for Henry Morgan Brimmell jnr's supposed career as a sea captain a myth passed down by some of his descendants.However it was interesting to look at records of shpping  using Gloucester docks at the end of the 19th century.Salt seemed to have been the main commodity being shipped,brought down from Droitwich by river boats.I found later from censuses and from his Death certificate that he was a shipwright or ship carpenter and died at the age of 37 of pneumonia .My grandmother Mabel Brimmell was quite young at the time .Life must have been a struggle for her mother with four young children and she went off to London as soon as she was old enough.Incidently I am going to the funeral in Surrey at the end of the month of  my aunty,the last surviving of Mabel Brimmell's offspring.I am advoiding naming living people as I believe that is the rule of the website.I could send you a PM if you like.Best wishes OrganicJohn
Morgan in London.Brimmell in Gloucester.Truman in London and Norfolk.Spratt in London,Stroud,and U.S.A.Berriman in London,Cornwall,and Australia.Steer in London.Blackburn in Essex.