Picconi family

[*Sandra*]

 

According to a relative of Ada Foster (Elizabeth's sister), both Ricardo Picconi and David John James were a taboo subject in the family, but this relative had no idea why. Elizabeth's daughter to Ricardo, Elsie or Eliza, was known of by my grandmother - but she didn't remember her name and said she "ran away from home" at age 17 - and looking for her was what started me off on the whole Family Tree hunt, about 10 years ago. I found that Elsie married a Thomas Arthur Sutton in 1914. Checking the Electoral Rolls (as I couldn't find a death for Elsie Sutton) it seems that they divorced and she went back to her maiden name, under which I did find her death in 1939 in London.


I have been piecing together the child William on the 1891 Census, and have found him living with his Uncle (also William, who was married to Henrietta Ross, but she disappeared I know not where!) in a Boarding House in London in the 1911 Census. A friend in the UK found William's birth record in the Gray's Inn Workhouse in 1888 and I have his birth Certificate, on which Elizabeth says she is a "Music Hall Singer!" The workhouse record lists her on entry as a "Prostitute" (quite a shock for our family!) aged 16, and a "Domestic Servant" when she left. Poverty may have been the key here, as Elizabeth's father Edward had left her mother Phoebe Elizabeth (nee Thompson) for another woman a few years before that. No father is listed on either birth or baptism record for William. Still don't know where William was in 1901, but then David James is also "missing" on that Census and Elizabeth lists herself as the "Head."


Marilyn

Think that death was in Q4 1934 - 1 c 238 when Elsie was 39 years old.

William Foster was in St Andrew Holborn above the Bars and St George the Martyr in  1891. The census that shows Elizabeth mis-transcribed as "Dicconi"

Elizabeth Foster  48
Elizabeth Dicconi  20
Aela Foster  17
William Foster  4
Aela G Dicconi  1

Sandra

[*Sandra*]

Just a couple of thoughts :- Maybe if you posted the photograph of David John James (in uniform with cap beside him) on the special interest section of armed forces board, someone more knowledgeable and expertise could perhaps identify the uniform, regiment or even find where David served ? Could he have served in the Boar War ? Was he Commissioned ?  Did he die from wounds he received or some other cause ?  Of course the death certificate would tell you that, do you happen to know the cause of death ?

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=300.0

How about enquiring on the Europe board to see if anything further could be found on Ricardo or siblings in Borgotaro Parma Italy ?



Sandra

[AMBLY]

I'm thinking on the same lines as Sandra...and that said, this may be worth following up on:

Ada Filomena D PICCONI was registered born in Holborn, 1903.
Her father was Ferdinando PICCONI.....

In 1923, Ada PICCONI, age 20, single, housek(eeper)b London, England, ethnic Italian, travelled  from Genova, Italy to New York on the ship "Comte Rosso".Her residence is given as Belforte, North Italy. Her father is Ferdinand PICCONI of Belforte di Borgotaro. She was going to her cousin Lucio PICCONI of 558 2nd Ave, NY and intending to stay permanently.

In 1929, Ada PICCONI STEFANI age 29, born London England, housewife, returned to New York from Genoa, after visiting her father Ferdinando PICCONI in Borgotaro, Parma. She was returning to her husband Carlo STEFANI of 348 st / 46th St NY.

http://www.myheritage.com/person-1000104_116277171_116277171/lucio-picconi
Lucio PICCONI b 1889, Paris France, d 1970, Queens, Long Island NY.
Can see him through Census etc in the US. But can't find parents for him. His father should  be a brother of Ferdinando, if he (Lucio) is Ada's  1st cousin?

Ferdinando PICCONI married in Holborn Reg district  - probably to Maria POLEDRI (Italian name?)

I see that after the death of her husband David JAMES,  Mary Elizabeth JAMES (formerly known as PICCONI) nee FOSTER "married " again to  Thomas HAWKINS, himself previously married with children, including a son named Walter born 1892. No marriage found I believe? But they had a number of children together including a William HAWKINS, born 1906. (I wonder, would she have named a subsequent child William, if she's already given that name to an earlier child who was still alive…..?).  Could any of these HAWKINS children have gone to Canada and in the collective family thought, be lumped in with & labelled as  "the italian side" - harking back to what was possibly Elizabeth's biggest & most memorable 'shocker' within the family - her liasion with Riccardo the Italian?

Riccardo's ethnicity is possibly the reason why he  was taboo, along with the fact they never married or perhaps neither had a  'de-facto' marriage - just the 2 children.   Was Thomas HAWKINS  'accepted' / mentioned in the family?

As for David JAMES being taboo - the circumstances of his 1902 death could well be the reason there.   He was listed as a soldier (deceased) in 1902 on the birth of his daughter Lilian. Possibly he was in the 2nd Boer War, as Sandra suggests - and the reason why he was absent from the 1901 Census - though if he was, he was back in the UK before the end of that war?  What was his civil occupation?  I wonder if either of the portraits taken of him were done at the same time as the one of Mary Elizabeth (perhaps to precede his going off to war, a common reason for photographs).  You're very lucky to have a photo of her btw, all things considered!). The seated photo of David JAMES in full uniform looks much more ranked than the one of him in the  army pinny , but that may be just me!
 
Elsie PICONI, married 1914 to Thomas Arthur SUTTON. Can't see any issue to this couple with PIC* as mms.  Might he have died in WW1?  Divorce would be highly unlikely-  even for the higher classes, it was an expensive, convoluted exercise, let alone for the lower working class. She was registered and baptized as Elsie and is Elsie on the birth registration  - and I believe so
on 1911 you have, spelled as Elise.  I wonder if she could have gone to Canada for a time at least, returning to England in the 30's  - as she is the one most likely to be thought of as "the Italian side".

And for elimination, I don't know if you have already found it, but  in 1891:
At 18 Malta Street, Clerkenwell
RG 12, P222, F30, pg 52
Are the Households of :
Alfred MUNDY & family
James FLOWERS & family
Thomas THORNE & family
Mary HOWLETT
Pauline PILKIN

Elsie Lucia PICCONI 1892, her abode at baptism was 18 Malta Street at Baptism . Was hoping some PICCONI's  might have been there, but no luck!

Cheers
AMBLY

[Mazzerarty]

Hi again to all my fellow-researchers!

It's a lot for me to trawl through, but I can shed some light on Ambly's post. I have the Death Certificate for my Ada Gertrude Picconi, and that is definitely the right one... however your finds on this other Ada Picconi (father Ferdinand born in Borgotaro) make me think they could perhaps be related. I will definitely pursue that line and see if it comes up with anything.

No, I can't find a marriage for Elizabeth Picconi/Foster/James to Thomas Hawkins, either. She seemed to choose some "interesting" men... I've been told that Thomas Hawkins had alcohol problems and was abusive, which is why my grandmother Lilian thought Elsie had run away from home - to escape him.

The naming of William Hawkins confuses me also, as I have reason to believe the original William was alive in 1911 and living in a Boarding House with his Uncle (also William, Elizabeth's brother).

I have contact with a granddaughter of Elizabeth and Thomas Hawkins and none of their children went to Canada.

The mystery with David John James is also his occupation. I have every record from his marriage to Elizabeth to his death and his daughter Lilian's baptism record is the ONLY one that mentions him being a Soldier. On the marriage record (1896) he's a Tin Worker; on their first daughter Violet Elizabeth's Birth Cert he is a Hotel Plateman (1899). Next is Violet's Baptism record where he's a Salesman, and then his Death Cert. (Feb. 1902) lists him as a Potman. Then we have Lilian Alexandra's Birth Cert (June 1902) where he is a Tin Worker and Journeyman. The intriguing thing here is that he died in the Alexander Ward of St. Thomas' Hospital, which I think could account for Lilian's middle name (possibly). It's only on Lilian's Baptism record that it says he was a Soldier, and the 2 photos of him in uniform confirm that. Those photos were, I found out recently, taken by Aug. Neilsen in Kilkenny, Ireland, but not dated. I have taken them to our local Military Museum and also sent copies to a UK Genealogy Magazine, and they both think the uniform could be the West Surrey Regiment and taken around 1901. I can't find any Enlistment or Military records for him under that Regiment so far on the NA site or Forces Online. The photos taken of Elizabeth and Violet were dated 1900 and taken in London.

I have also checked for his name in the Boer War records, but the only one I found died much earlier, so I have concluded that wasn't him, and I feel almost 100% certain that the Death Certificate I have is the right one.

Now to Thomas Arthur Sutton... I have their marriage Cert and he was a Driver in the RHA at Colchester when they married in December 1914, at St. George's Roman Catholic Church, Hanover Square. That is of interest to me as I know Elizabeth's family were Church of England. I also have found no children for them. Intriguingly, on the marriage cert she either didn't know her real father's name or she was combining all 3 of her mother's "husbands," as it says he was "David Piconi, deceased, Occupation - Hawker."

If I spelled her name wrong on the 1911 Census, that would have been a typo on my part (easy to do!!!) Sorry about that.

I have never been able to work out how to look on the Census records under street addresses - can you let me know how to do it? David John James had an address of 151 Bemerton Street, Islington on his Hospital and Death records in 1902, and I have no idea if he would have been living with Elizabeth or not at that stage.

As there are several David James' in 1901 (funny about that!), including one in Pentonville Prison in the 1901 Census (wrong age and occupation, but the bloke underneath that name, William Jones, is the right age and occupation! Wonder if they mixed them up?), several in Wales, the family I have on my Tree that a relative is convinced is the right one, but I'm not so sure as some things don't add up, etc.! A pain having relatives with a common name!

Actually, the name "James Flowers" rings a vague bell with me, but I've hunted through all my records and can't locate anyone of that name yet.... (in my mind I see that name as above or below one of my ancestors' baptism records...)

Thanks also to Sandra - on David's death cert it states that he cut his throat with a razor (hence the Inquest) and died 5 days later in hospital. Of course, my vivid imagination has him murdered, but it was judged as suicide (which is why I'd love to find the Inquest record).

In another twist, the name "Elizabeth Foster" is also linked with Jack the Ripper, as a Prostitute of that name is a witness in the case of Mary Kelly! I am still trying to find out if that could be my great-grandmother!

Cheers
Marilyn

[sami]

David John James had an address of 151 Bemerton Street, Islington on his Hospital and Death records in 1902, and I have no idea if he would have been living with Elizabeth or not at that stage.

Hi Marilyn:

Took a quick look at 151, Bemerton Street, Islington. The 1901 census reference is:

RG13 piece 182 folio 86 page 21 and page 22

The family names living at that address are Flint, Carnaby, Cash, Turner, Hillyer, and Boyd.

sami

[jorose]

There's also a reference to a "Piconi" family in Scotland (David Piconi, ice-cream maker) at http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk so that could be another place to look for him.

[sami]

But I notice that Elizabeth and Ada are transcribed as surname "Dicconi.
I've looked at the original and I think the first letter is a "D". Probably pronunciation heard as D and not P.

Ada Filomena D PICCONI was registered born in Holborn, 1903.
Her father was Ferdinando PICCONI.....

When looking for Ricardo keep in mind that the name Piconni may actually have begun with a 'Di' or 'De' which has either been dropped or misheard during registration or census taking. I've been wondering if thats what happened when Elizabeth and Ada were transcribed in 1891 and also when Ada Filomena's birth was recorded in 1903.

Just a thought.

sami

[Mazzerarty]

Hello again,
This is a quick question for Ambly, who posted that wonderfully comprehensive reply on the Picconi family.... You also had a list of people living at 18 Malta St., Clerkenwell in 1891. The name of James Flowers rings a vague bell with me (think I've seen that family's name on a record I have to do with the James/Picconi family - still hunting it down!), and I'm wondering if you can tell me what's the best way to look up addresses and who was living there? I can't see how to do that on Ancestry.
Many thanks for your help.
Marilyn

[Alberta]

This is the first time I've ever seen this website, so bear with me.  My mothers family were Picconis from Belforte, Borgotaro Italy.  I don't know Riccardo, or Ferdinand, but my grandfather Enrico emigrated around 1920, and his father Pietro was back and forth at the turn of the 20th century.  I have no idea how to email anybody, but if anyone wants to talk about Picconi, I've got some info.  Ditto Barbieri, who were also from Belforte.