May Sophia DENTON b abt 1883 Abingdon

[jan57]

  1891  census    Drummond St  St Pancras

Harry Denton  47   b St Pancras    under caretaker  of Building
 Elizabeth Denton  41   tailoress
 William Denton  22   labourer
 Albert Denton  19   railway  clerk 
 Henry Denton  9

 All are  born St Pancras

  next  census  Harry (Snr)  is a  bricklayer 
 


 

 
 

[Connie Sparrow]

Might be a couple of trees squashed into one and the children born Abingdon don't belong there.
Makes more sense the children would be in the workhouse if their mother (Sophia) had died.  If they belonged to the other couple who were alive and well why wouldn't they be living with them in London. 

Marriage to Elizabeth Eva should be around 1875/6.  But I can't see one that fits.  You found a birth for Harry so that appears to have been his name.  I wondered if Harry/Henry was his middle name.  She is down as Lizzie so that's another name combination to look for!

It won't be the first time two separate trees have been amalgamated incorrectly into one.

As you say, logically Sophia Ann's children would be in Abingdon and Elizabeth Eva's in London.  I can't see Sophia Ann's being given day release to visit their father in London.  Pressure would have been put on him to take them on a permanent basis so relieve the parish of the cost of their keep.

I also found a Henry Harry DENTON just to complicate matters further

I couldn't find Elizabeth Eva either.  I wonder if they actually married or whether the marriage is simply missing from the GRO index.

I'm about to have a rummage in the trees and also to see if I can get in touch with the authors of them.

[Connie Sparrow]

  1891  census    Drummond St  St Pancras

Harry Denton  47   b St Pancras    under caretaker  of Building
 Elizabeth Denton  41   tailoress
 William Denton  22   labourer
 Albert Denton  19   railway  clerk 
 Henry Denton  9

 All are  born St Pancras

  next  census  Harry (Snr)  is a  bricklayer

Thank you

I think there are two different families but which might be related.

May Sophia's father's occupation is very specific and quite unusual so I don't think that was an invention. A bricklayer was a trade for which I believe he'd have served an apprenticeship. I can't see him being an under caretaker unless it was a secondary job or he was out of work as a bricklayer, sanitary or otherwise.

I could really do with having sight of the Abingdon PRs.  I also need a time machine!

[Connie Sparrow]

Might be a couple of trees squashed into one and the children born Abingdon don't belong there.
Makes more sense the children would be in the workhouse if their mother (Sophia) had died.  If they belonged to the other couple who were alive and well why wouldn't they be living with them in London. 

Definitely a mix 'n' match but not entirely or wholly the fault of the author of the tree - at least not as far as I can tell.

Ancestry have managed to incorrectly index Benjamin SYLVESTER, 26, as being in Harry's family.  Harry lived at 106 Drummond Street and Benjamin lived at 108 Drummond Street.  They were neighbours. The actual schedules make that clear and I've told Ancestry

The author of the tree seems to have mistakenly assumed Benjamin was Lizzie's son by a previous relationship without looking at the schedules themselves.

However, the author seems to have merged the Abingdon and St Pancras families into one, which may or may not be correct

Whilst I accept Harry may have been in Abingdon at some stage, possibly because he did have family connections there, I can't accept Abingdon Union would have accepted responsibility for any of his children, not when he wasn't born there.  Children take their parish from their father.  So even if May and Albert were born in Abingdon, their parish would have been St Pancras.

If for any reason the two children were being supported by Abingdon Union, the Abingdon Overseers would have claimed the charges back from St Pancras Union.  So there should be something in the account books of both Unions to that effect.

I think Albert Archer DENTON may hold the key but without May Sophia's birth or baptism there'll still be an element of conjecture.

I'm going to make a note of what we've found on May Sophia's record and mark it as awaiting confirmation one way or t'other.

I'm not going to close this query but for the moment, I think we've gone as far as we can for now.  I do have a couple of avenues I can try.

Many thanks to you, Suz and Jan for having a tussle with this.  It's much appreciated

[Milliepede]

One last thing there is a birth for Fanny May Denton in Abingdon Sep 1883.  Suppose she dropped the Fanny, was known as May, but after her mother died took her name as a second name to remember her by.  Or is that too sentimental.

I can't see any other obvious references to a Fanny Denton on census etc so it just might be her 
And the birth for Albert Archer Denton is Dec 1884 so the dates are ok.

[Connie Sparrow]

One last thing there is a birth for Fanny May Denton in Abingdon Sep 1883.  Suppose she dropped the Fanny, was known as May, but after her mother died took her name as a second name to remember her by.  Or is that too sentimental.

I can't see any other obvious references to a Fanny Denton on census etc so it just might be her 
And the birth for Albert Archer Denton is Dec 1884 so the dates are ok.

Fanny May is a possibility.  Timing's right.  If she was Sophia Ann's dau, she would have been about 5 when her mother died so maybe is was her grandmother who renamed her. 

I don't think it's sentimental. There's no reason why it couldn't happen, esp if Sophia was a much loved dau.  Although the past was a very different world to today's, I don't think people themselves were that different from us.

I've heard back from the author of the tree you found.  She says Albert Orchard was her grandfather and that May Sophia and her husband were witnesses to his marriage.  I can't find an Albert Orchard DENTON though.

The to-ing and fro-ing between Abingdon and London doesn't sit right with me though, nor apparently leaving the children in the workhouse.

[jan57]

Albert Orchard Denton

:
1908

Registration Quarter:
Jul-Aug-Sep

Registration district:
St Marylebone

Volume:
1a

Page:
1400

Records on Page:


Name

 Frances Elizabeth Bird 
 Dorothy Boreham 
 Albert Orchard Denton 
 Frank Pye 
 

[Connie Sparrow]

Albert Orchard Denton
1908
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: St Marylebone
Volume: 1a Page: 1400

Name
 Frances Elizabeth Bird 
 Dorothy Boreham 
 Albert Orchard Denton 
 Frank Pye

Thank you

There's no birth for an Albert Orchard or anything else Orchard.  I think Millie was right and the middle name should be Archer.

[Milliepede]

It's a pity his marriage cert isn't online but I suppose it would only give father Harry anyway which wouldn't help - or would it.
Don't suppose the lady who is related has it does she?  If she knows May Sophia was a witness then she probably has seen it.  They must have been brother and sister.

Do we have the Harry fathers in different places at the same time to prove there were two of them not one? 
I still think they were grafted onto the wrong tree. 

What about the other children that were with Sophia when she was living with her Smith family.
There was a George, Willie and John Herbert who I can see a death for later that year (1881)