Hugh Watson of Keillor and Angus cattle fame

[celtic1]

For decades I have been trying to confirm/ascertain that Hugh Watson of Keillor had either an illegitimate son James - born around 1811 - or that he had a wife before Margaret (who burned all his papers) and that they had a son James.
This James was the founder of Flemington Estate near Melbourne and the owner of the first Keilor <sic> in Victoria. It has been impossible to find his birth.
Or, perhaps can someone help me with Hugh's father George Watson? Did he perhaps have a brother James?
I know the Watson family managed three farms including Keillor.
I would die happy if I could find details of James parents

[MonicaL]

Hi celtic1

Welcome to RootsChat 

Wondering whether you had come across this old post here on RootsChat www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659957.0

There is mention for example, on page 1, of Hugh Watson's death and will document. It may be that someone has viewed the Will on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and mention is made there of Hugh Watson's children.

For background here, this is the James Watson you are researching? www.flemingtonheritage.org.au/people/james-watson/  From this link: Flemington and Keilor are not the only Melbourne suburbs named by Watson.  Rose Anna Farm (now Roseanna) was also purchased by Watson in 1840 and named after his soon-to-be wife Elizabeth Anna Rose.  I found the reference again (from the other discussion on the older thread) to the surname Rose interesting. From the bio written by Hugh Watson's daughter also mentioned on the other thread (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BzLOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA477&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false ) there is a mention at the bottom of page 479 of: Hugh Watson marrying the eldest daughter of James Rose esq, of Geddes and Flemington, in the county of Nairn and heir-male of the ancient barony of Kilravock.

Do you know who the parents were Elizabeth Anna Rose, wife of James Watson?

I see mention of Hugh Watson having had brothers. Have you been able to establish what his brothers' names were? Looks like Hugh had only one sister, from an 1824 marriage notice, Jessie, only daughter of William Watson www.rootschat.com/links/016og/

Monica

[MonicaL]

Or, perhaps can someone help me with Hugh's father George Watson? Did he perhaps have a brother James?

Reading through the other post, George is thought to be Hugh's grandfather, not father (I think!). As summary from there:

Grandparents

George Watson and Jean Rose (again the Rose surname)

George Watson, husband of Jean Rose died in 1813
This is mentioned in 'Epitaphs and Inscriptions', ed Andrew Jervise a version of which is available online:
http://archive.org/stream/epitaphsinscript00jerv/epitaphsinscript00jerv_djvu.txt

Yes, I wondered about the 'Rose' surname appearing twice, well worth investigating

I found this possible marriage entry for George Watson and Jean Rose https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYMH-1LZ Her father on the Parish Register given as Hugh Rose. Not sure what the original image may show as this is from the OPRs and often limited info.

Parents

William Watson and Janet Wilkie

'Wm Watson d Auchtertyre 3.12.1830 71, w Janet Wilkie 2.5.1835 81' (the dates immediately after the names are the date of deaths, the figures 71 and 81 are the ages at the time of their deaths).  Likely candidates for Hugh's parents?

I found this birth entry which helps hopefully set some of the chronology - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB6C-G9M

You then have Hugh Watson and wife Margaret Rose (Rose's everywhere here  )

From Angus MIs, Newtyle
church vault
'Hugh Watson for 55y tent Keillor b. Bannatyne 4.10.1787 d. the Den Perth 10.11.1865, w Margt Rose 7.3.1805 1.11.1866; Hugh Watson was one of the founders of the famous Aberdeen Angus breed of cattle'

Gali did huge amount of work on that old thread 

Monica

[MonicaL]

What a pity that births & christenings for these lines don't seem to show really in the OPRs 

One thing that strikes me though. Too many Roses! Likely a connection. A thought for you...

Could Margaret Rose born in Aberdeen 7.3.1805 and died 1.11.1866, who married Hugh Watson, and Elizabeth Ann Rose, who married James Watson, be sisters?

I can only see references to Margaret Rose's father being a James Rose from Geddes and Flemington....a similar description that is being used to Elizabeth Ann Rose, such as here:

In 1841 in the Port Phillip District, now Melbourne in Australia, a young
woman named Elizabeth Anna ROSE married James WATSON. Elizabeth was
described in the newspaper wedding notice as the daughter of James ROSE of
Flemington, Morayshire....
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCT-INVERNESS/2004-07/1089676964

I wonder if any of the family researchers has viewed Margaret Rose Watson's death cert to see what it says regarding her parents?

Found this in Wills on Scotlands People:

Mrs Elizabeth Carmichael ROSE - 17 July 1857, Alias HUNTER, residing in CARNOUSTIE, relict of  James ROSE, Esquire of FLEMINGTON at DUNDEE SHERIFF COURT. Ref. SC45/31/13 - 17 pages

I think Elizabeth Rose shows living alone in Carnoustie in 1841 and 1851. The death of a daughter, Jane Ramsay Rose, showing in the Elgin Courant, and Morayshire Advertiser Moray, on 12 Oct 1849. A snippet from this (pay to view online) is: At Carnoustie, on the 29th ult., after few days' illness, is Jane Ramsay Rose, youngest daughter of the late James Rose, Esq. of Flemington. This looks like Jane here in 1841, https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VY8X-L1S

Thought from what I saw earlier that Margaret Rose's mother may have been a Duncan. Lost the source for that now. Doesn't exclude a further marriage for James Rose and Margaret and Elizabeth with different mothers? Hopefully Margaret Rose Watson's death cert would help with this.

The surname Hunter came up in connection with your James Watson didn't it? Regarding the Watson and Hunter Pastoral Company? However, there is some clash as to who was the Watson in Watson & Hunter. Some sources are mentioning a completely different Watson Line, see http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-VIC-GIPPSLAND/1999-01/0917816800 and http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENANZ/2002-03/1016368673

Monica

[celtic1]

Thanks for so much information in your reply MonicaL.
 I have done a lot of work on this story of the Melbourne Flemington as I wrote an entry in the Encyclopedia of Melbourne on it's naming, and caused a stir. It was obviously named after Flemington Estate of James Rose esq. in Scotland, Elizabeth's father, not the butcher named Fleming as had long been supposed.
A document in the State Library of Victoria claims Alexander Hunter (sen) and James Watson (sen) were boyhood friends, meeting in later life and organising the pastoral concern in which their sons and some Hunter cousins were involved. I have never been able to find that James Watson (snr).
The Marquis of Ailsa and others funded this concern which was doomed to failure.
The Melbourne James Watson married again when Elizabeth died in May 1847. The second wife Anne Hawker gave details on his 1869 death certificate which were incorrect.
I have even visited the area in SCotland and stood outside the Keillor steading - which is now being developed. The origin of the Australian Keillor is often misquoted, giving Hugh as James's father. Hence my original post.
However I have never seen the reference you have given to Margaret Rose being a possible sister. I will pursue these new thoughts
Thank you

[MonicaL]

You may need to check further sources to try and pick up on a thread taking to you to James in Melbourne from these family lines we have here. A really useful source, which Gali mentioned in the other post, is Wills & Testaments. At least three showing from what we have so far:

William Watson 2 Jan  1835. Tenant at AUCHTERTYRE. FORFAR SHERIFF COURT. Ref. SC47/40/10 - 5 pages

Hugh WATSON Esq., 19 April 1866 Sometime at KEILLOR, afterwards residing at THE DEN, near PERTH at PERTH SHERIFF COURT. Ref. SC49/31/81 -45 pages

Can't easily see anything for Grandfather George in terms of Wills & Testaments, whose death we have in 1813 from what has been mentioned.

Mrs Elizabeth Carmichael ROSE - 17 July 1857, Alias HUNTER, residing in CARNOUSTIE, relict of  James ROSE, Esquire of FLEMINGTON at DUNDEE SHERIFF COURT. Ref. SC45/31/13 - 17 pages

I know exchange rates can make things complicated, but you can view/download all these three wills online on SP for £7GB/30 units. Incredibly good value. You pay 10 units to view each will, regardless of how many pages there are. In this case, particularly for Hugh, they are substantial documents.

Also, cannot see a Will entry showing for James Rose of Flemington. Some sources show him deceased by 1828 (no further details).  On this generation of Roses, Margaret is showing as eldest daughter and Jane Ramsay Rose as the youngest daughter of James Rose. Elizabeth before c.1813, with youngest Jane being around 1813. This fits with what I have seen for Elizabeth. One possible further sister here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYJ1-KMG

Did James Watson and Elizabeth Rose have any children up to her early death? What about from James' marriage to Anne Hawker? What parents' details did Anne Hawker show for James from his 1869 death reg.?

Monica 

[Gali]

Hi celtic1,

Can you let us know what info is given on James Watson's VIC marriage and death certs? 

I couldn't find any evidence in the Scottish sources for a link with Hugh Watson.  The only links I could find were either mentions in unsourced contemporary webpages or this obit of Alexander McLean Hunter from 1893 (again unsourced and written some 24 years after James' death) which mentions James Watson as 'a connection of Mr Watson of Keillor': 
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77071275

The Will of Hugh Watson mentions 'my eldest son William' as an executor and makes arrangements for his wife, his daughters, and the children of his deceased daughters, but his other sons are not mentioned. 

[Gali]

Death cert of Margaret Rose (wife of Hugh Watson) gives parentage as James Rose, occ Factor and Margaret m/s Duncan

[MonicaL]

You have seen this new post Gali, that is great 

I thought I had seen somewhere that Margeret Rose's mother was a Duncan, but couldn't remember where  There is this marriage showing in 1811 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTVM-K6X. Same names, possibly a second marriage, but hard to say if connected at this stage without further details.

Great snippet on the death of Alexander Hunter, Gali. I think his father was also an Alexander, Alexander Hunter esq of Drum House, Libberton, Writer to the Signet. Shows at Drum House in 1841, wife Maria. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTPY-VH3  A little futher background here http://clanhuntercanada.weebly.com/the-wild-boys.html - a interesting read of the events connected with this story here.

Hugh Watson's will, from what you mentioned, very clearly makes no mention at all of James Watson.

Monica

Added: http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/hunter-john-2214