1841 census Sackville street

[hurworth]

http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/1/18/catholicrecord12unknuoft/catholicrecord12unknuoft.pdf

Many of the families discussed in this thread are in this document.

[Sire Keene]

Is Mrs John Keene, Acting Patroness and Treasurer of The Marylebone and Paddington Catholic Lying-In Charity a member of the family?

I'm sorry, I have only just seen this post. Yes, she is Catherine Johnson, born in Banbury 1807, died in Boulogne 1859, married John Keene (1805-77) in 1827. Seven children. John Keene was the second son of John Keene and Elizabeth Dangerfield.

[Pams genealogy]

Wow Cora2 I was hoping to find you again. We conversed quite  a few years ago. I let this family go for a while as it was a huge brick wall with nothing online after much searching.
I have taught genealogy at my LDS for years and transcribed for Surrey FHG and others. I have just started again, after retirement..... hoping that more was on ancestry and other websites for me to get my teeth into....BUT NOTHING so far.
My Grt Grt grandparents are Thomas Stroud 1817 and Frances Keene circa 1818ish.
The wedding certificate 24/9/1838 states both of full age
Bachelor, Spinster,
Thomas Stroud, coachmaker
Thomas address, 13 Swallow street,
Frances Keene, 22 Sackville street,
parents Thomas Stroud (coachmaker) and John Keene (tailor)
witnesses James Allen and Nancy Smith
Note witness - Nancy Smith appears to be Sarah Ann Agnes KEENE who married a Thomas SMITH, and she is the daughter of John KEENE and Elizabeth Clara. Sarah Ann Agnes Keenes "nickname" was Nancy (rootschat - Cora2)

I hoped from this that Frances was "Nancy's" sister......being a witness at her wedding.
However I still cannot find her birth 
She certainly could have fitted into the family Sarah Ann, Theodophilus etc...John Joseph, William Joseph etc. Any help gratefully received.
I was also hoping that someone had access to the St James Westminster PR's or something and that it had been mistranscribed. Having researched and transcribed I have seen some doozies.
I have two directory entries for John Keene & Co for 81 Audley street, London and 19 South Audley street, London.
Cheers Pam

[Sire Keene]

Pam, I must have missed your previous contributions to this conversation, or perhaps it was too long ago to remember.

I write as the descendant of James Keene, brother of the Sarah Ann Agnes Keene whom you mention.

It is news to me that Sarah Ann Agnes married Thomas Smith. Can you give me details of this marriage and in particular the date?

She is presumably the "Miss Keene" who in January 1840 took a lease on Mawson House, Chiswick, where her parents John and Elizabeth came to live. If so, she cannot have been called "Nancy Smith" in 1838. On what grounds do you say that Nancy Smith "appears to be" Sarah Ann Agnes Keene?

In previous correspondence it was determined that Frances Keene was not a member of the family of John Keene and Elizabeth Clara Dangerfield, of 19 South Audley Street, but belonged to another family of tailors called Keene, living in Sackville Street.

The children of John Keene (1754-1841) and Elizabeth Clara Dangerfield (1778/9-1853) were as follows:
William 1802-52
John 1804-77
Frederick 1806-30
George 1808 to before 1851?
James 1810-90
Edward 1812-25
Sarah Ann Agnes 1813 to before 1851?
Mary Ann Josephine 1814-15
Theophilus 1817-87
Henry 1819-31

I look forward to your information about this.

Henry.

[Pams genealogy]

Hi Henry
If you go back to page one of this thread...I actually started it .....under the nickname Sunny.
A lot of my information comes Cora2 and some other wonderful people - one of the original people to answer this 1841 census lookup.
This is from MY Marriage certificate for Frances Keene and Thomas Stroud.

1.  My Grt Grt grandparents are Thomas Stroud 1817 and Frances Keene circa 1818ish.
The wedding certificate 24/9/1838 states both of full age
Bachelor, Spinster,
Thomas Stroud, coachmaker
Thomas address, 13 Swallow street, (round the corner from Sackville street)
Frances Keene, 22 Sackville street,
parents Thomas Stroud (coachmaker) and John Keene (tailor)
witnesses James Allen and Nancy Smith
YOU WILL NOTE BELOW THAT SARAH ANN WAS MARRIED IN 1834 BEFORE BEING A WITNESS AT FRANCES WEDDING.

2.  Cora2 stated in one of her answers to my original question..... which we might have to go back and find....That Sarah Ann Agnes Keene (twin) & NOTE that Sarah Ann Agnes used the nickname of Nancy). She gave me a list of the children including Sarah Ann Agnes.....Wm Joseph, John Joseph etc. Found it see below,.....
All of my census data for Frances states she was born London Msx and I the other Tailoring family I found was born Ireland.  All other searched for birth yield nothing. It was before BMD's and Catholic records are scanty. When you eliminate everything else and there is only one option left....

3. Post on Page two on rootschat from Cora2 with a couple of editions from me but nothing pertaining to the topic at hand.
The Gazette
Notice is hereby given that the partnership hereforto subsisting between us the undersigned John Testar and John keene of South Audley street, in the county of Msx, Tailors and Drapers under the firm of Keene and Testar, determined on the 7th February lst - and that all debts due to and from the said concern will be received and paid by the said John Keene, witness our hand on this 2nd March, 1824, John Keene and John Testar, 81 South Audley Street.

After John Testars death the firm became known as John Keene and son and moved down the street to 19 South Audley street.
John Testars son continued the business at 81 Audley street, the original address of the firm above.
 
John Junior left the firm and started up the Sackville street establishment
These business were also the various family residences. I don't know why John Senior would have been listed at his sons address at 22 Sackville address on Frances wedding. Perhaps to save on Church fees for the wedding because Swallow street is nearby. His widow lived at South Audley Street many years after his death.

The Testar and Keene families of Mayfair were part of a very influential circle of Roman Catholic society in the early 1800's. Several members of the Smith family were button makers and also closely allied with these two families. . The Patriatrch Thomas Smith was a baker however, and his establishment was based in chelsea wher4e according to Family history, the chelsea bun wa first created and became a house specialty.

NOTE Nancy Smith was a witness at Frances Keene and Thomas Strouds wedding
If you're looking for Keene siblings, here's a list of the children of John Keene (1775-1839) and his wife Elizabeth Clara (1778-1853)  who married February 7, 1802.  Birthdates of these children are approximate.  I haven't tracked down all of them.  I hadn't previously come across Frances' name in this family but, if she married in 1838, then one presumes she may have been born around 1818 and there was certainly room for her.  Alternatively, since these names were taken from an old family bible, she may have been b. around 1820 and just didn't make it onto the page, so to speak.

William Joseph b. abt 1803
John Joseph 1805
Frederick Joseph 1806
George Joseph 1809
James Joseph 1810
Edward Joseph 1813
Sarah Ann Agnes 1813   (twin) (note the nickname for Agnes is "Nancy")
Theophilus Joseph 1817
Henry Joseph 1819

Here's a little anecdote about Theophilus (the cad.)  He's the chap who promised his cousin, Marianne Testar he'd return for her after he made his fortune in Australia.  Trouble is he never called.  He never wrote.  Marianne eventually gave up and joined a nunnery.  But Theophilus did eventually return, having indeed amassed a fortune as a sheep rancher.  Too late.  He went back to Australia and soon married. More on Theo but exceeds rootschat limits.

4. Marriage of Sarah Ann Keene to Thomas Smith on ancestry - Note this was before she was a wiwtness at Frances Keenes marriage to Thomas Stroud.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61867&h=91967592&tid=&pid=&queryId=ab36c11ce9af1fee5f593b09406851f7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Any7542&_phstart=successSource
NOTE WITNESS JAMES KEENE (brother??) and Elizabeth SMITH
ALSO THAT THEY WERE MARRIED IN THE SAME CHURCH AS MY FRANCES KEENE AND THOMAS STROUD.

5.  John Keene Testar of 81 Audley street (Tailor) also married a Smith.
Please consider the possibilities as there are absolutely no other possibilities that I can find for my Frances.......
Cheers Pam

[Sire Keene]

Thank you for your reply, Pam.

Unfortunately the crucial piece of evidence, the marriage register for Sarah Ann Agnes Keene and Thomas Smith, consists in a link to the Ancestry site, of which I am no longer a member. Could you display the information for me?

I would point out that Cora writes; "note the nickname for Agnes is Nancy". This is not the same as knowing for a fact that Sarah Ann Agnes Keene was known as Nancy, and I would question it.

I also need to point out specific errors in what Cora writes: firstly, it is not true that Sarah Ann Agnes Keene was the twin of Edward Joseph. Edward was not born in 1813 but on 25 October 1812. I have the baptism records of all the Keene children at the Portuguese Embassy chapel from 1802 to 1819 (and by the way they don't include Frances).

It is also not true that John Keene Junior set up a separate tailor's business in Sackville Street after 1824. He went into partnership with his father at their old address of 19 South Audley St, then left the partnership in 1830 and moved to Bristol, where he evidently took up a different line of business. By 1845 he was a director in a range of companies including banking and especially the railway sector.

So care needs to be taken to distinguish the South Audley Street and the Sackville Street families.

Henry.

[Pams genealogy]

1. I will try and find the original  marriage Henry.
2. It's possible for some reason that Cora2 may have thought they were a twin, maybe? Not sure as she said they were from a bible.
3. Do you by any chance have information on John the Elders (married to Elizabeth Clara) parents and siblings. I am considering tracking the family on my database to see what falls out.  I am sure there is a link here somewhere. The other possible, like I said was born in Ireland. I am still pursuing this line but don't seem hopeful as a lot of things don't gel.
4.  Why the Portugese embassy chapel out of curiousity? Could you tell me them for my Keene database please.
Cheers pam

[Pams genealogy]

Henry I have tried numerous ways to copy and paste the marriage entry from ancestry onto here but for some reason cannot. Nor using the insert image above.
It's pretty basic tho'
Thomas Smith of this Parish and Sarah Ann Keene of this Parish were married in this Church by Banns this 29th day of June, one thousand eight hundred and thirty four by me Augustus Cavendish, Curate.
Both signed
In the Presence of James Keene and Elizabeth Smith. both signed
From Ancestry
Westminster, London, England marriages and Banns 1754-1935
St James Piccadilly (St James Westminster) 1827 to 1834.
Cheers Pam

[Sire Keene]

Thank you for this extract, Pam. Unfortunately, it gives no clue as to what family Sarah Ann Keene was from - not even the Sackville St. family.

One would be tempted to think that there was only one Sarah Ann Keene of marriageable age in Mayfair in 1834, but it is not impossible that there were two, and the lack of any other information about my great-great-grandfather's sister having married Thomas Smith still makes me doubtful.

Portuguese Embassy chapel: before Catholic Emancipation (1829) the main places of worship for Catholics in London were the embassies of the Catholic countries, which maintained staffs of English priests to serve that need. The Keenes of South Audley St. lived just round the corner from the Portuguese Embassy and attended it over many years, being good friends with its clergy. All their baptisms took place here and probably their (Catholic) marriages as well. The records of the Portuguese Embassy chapel down to 1835 are held by the Society of Genealogists and can be consulted on line.

You ask me about the parents of John Keene (1754-1841) and here I have drawn a complete blank. I have details of his four siblings:
William Keene, 1745/6-1815, who married Mary Catherine Colclough in London in 1772;
Elizabeth or Betty Keene, 1747/8-1829, married James Brittin of Leckhampstead, Bucks., in 1780;
(Mary) Ann Keene, who married Mr Bridg(e)water before 1784 and was widowed by 1815;
Hannah Keene, 1752-93, who married James Testar of Islington in 1772;
John Keene, 1754-1841, who married Elizabeth Clara Dangerfield in London in 1802.
But I have got absolutely nowhere in discovering their parents. They seem to have been a London family. The Keenes used the coat of arms of a family which was living in Ipswich in the 17th century, but the printed sources for that family do not go beyond 1697. If the link is genuine at all, there are at least one or two generations missing to get to the London Keenes, a gap in which there would have been a change of home town and of religion (John Keene and his four siblings were Catholics). If you can manage to trace the ancestry one generation back, or even to the Keenes of Ipswich, I for one will be very grateful to you.

Regards,

Henry.