Author Topic: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands  (Read 87966 times)

Offline peterd500

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #126 on: Wednesday 05 September 07 09:30 BST (UK) »
Margaret SUTHERLAND the wife of Walter GREEN was the daughter of John SUTHERLAND & Isabella SINCLAIR who was the daughter of Robert SINCLAIR & Helen BREMNER.

Robert SINCLAIR was the brother of my gggg-grandfather James SINCLAIR the chamberlain (at Thrumster House).  They had plenty of siblings and their father was Donald SINCLAIR the sailor whose father was David SINCLAIR of Broynach whose descendants were controversially passed over for the Earldom of Caithness in 1771 and 1788.

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Peter Sinclair DILLON
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Offline Tricia MORE

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #127 on: Wednesday 05 September 07 10:46 BST (UK) »
Hi Peter, Bec and James.
Peter we have exchanged re the possible David Sinclair/Margaret MORE or MacKay relation and you kindly sent me data.  TOPIC http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,187033.0.html
I was going to email Bec on another group  as I am sure our Cormack and MacKenzie family will relate somewhere .
Now though -  your last message may link us all.
I have a Margaret MORE(Moir Moor) b 1703 in Thurso - could she be the one  with David Sinclair!!
Tricia
BAILEY    (HAM/Portsmouth Portsea/1800s);
CORMACK    (CAI/Watten Wick/fam of Magnus C & Jean Taylor m 1739);
CORMACK    (DUR/Sunderland area 1800s/orig from CAI, SCT, 1700s);
JOHNSTON    (CAI/../All);
JOHNSTON    (ARL/Kirn Dunoon/circa 1800 - onwards);
JOHNSTON    (ELN/Prestonpans Tranent/fam of William Johnston Janet Forman);
MCDOUGAL     (ARL/MULL/pre1800 Neil McDougall Effy McPhail);
MCDOUGALL    (INV/Laggan/pre 1800 in Mull Argyll then INV etc);
MORE    (CAI/Wick Sarclet Thurso Orkney/1600

Offline peterd500

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #128 on: Wednesday 05 September 07 11:33 BST (UK) »
Hi Tricia

Yes I knew you would notice me!  :)

Actually the information regarding the connection from SINCLAIR to GREEN are in the document I sent you of the letters to the NORTHERN ENSIGN by Thomas SINCLAIR.  Ellen GREEN (ie Helen GREEN) was one of his deponents and it was Ellen who spelled out the connection.

Margaret MORE or MACKAY is supposed to have married 21 Oct 1744 to David SINCLAIR the son of David SINCLAIR of Broynach if that is any help.  If that date is correct then it implies that for your Margaret to be the same person she would be about 41 at marriage which is getting pretty old to start a family.  Then again I proved I wasn't firing blanks when my wife and I had our daughter when we were 41 and 44 respectively!

Peter

Offline peterd500

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #129 on: Wednesday 05 September 07 11:40 BST (UK) »
Isabella SINCLAIR & John SUTHERAAND eloped when they married.

The story is in the letters by Thomas SINCLAIR


Offline peterd500

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #130 on: Wednesday 05 September 07 15:32 BST (UK) »
This is the relevant section of one of the letters to which I referred.
~~~~~~~~----

NORTHERN ENSIGN - Tuesday 7th July 1891 - page 6, columns a, b

THE BROYNACHS AND THE EARLDOM OF CAITHNESS.

EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF THE CLAIM OF JAMES SINCLAIR, MID CLYTH.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE NORTHERN ENSIGN.

[ I chopped out a large section here ]

".....Isabella Green (Mrs George Sinclair), Halkirk, aged 66 upwards, depones that she is a daughter of the deceased Walter Green, Wick, and Margaret Sutherland ; that Margaret Sutherland, her mother, was daughter of Isabella Sinclair, whose father was Robert Sinclair, merchant. Wick, younger brother to James, the chamberlain at Thrumster House ; that the said Robert Sinclair, her great-grandfather, was born in Cairnquoy, a farm on the Thrumster estate, situated near Yarrows; that Robert Sinclair's only son was a soldier and died abroad, and she remembers his gaiters, and a malacca cane with silver top and tassel, and some other things belonging to him, which were sent home to John O' Groats to his sister Isabella (Mrs John Sutherland), by his widow, but that deponent does not know anything about his having a family or not, and that she thinks his name was Robert Sinclair.   Depones that his father, Robert Sinclair, merchant and burgess, Wick, was married a second time, and that it was the second wife's son who was drowned at sea, being in the navy.  Depones that she remembers her grandmother, Isabella Sinclair, the merchant's daughter, as a fine-looking woman, very proud-spirited, and even in old age and poverty showing the traces of having been well brought up; that Isabella was preparing to go to Edinburgh to be educated when her father died, she being then a young girl, and her higher education was thus stopped ; that the circumstances of her marriage to John Sutherland, Canisbay, were that a large vessel had come ashore at Staxigoe, and the houses of Wick being thrown open to the ship-wrecked, the captain was received by the merchant-burgess, with whose daughter, Isabella Sinclair, he fell in love, and to whom he proposed marriage ; that John Sutherland, her accepted sweetheart, heard of this, and he and his sister immediately journeyed from John O'Groats, contrived to have an interview with Isabella, who by the help of a servant left home a runaway or in elopement that night, and was married in Canisbay quam primum to John Sutherland (landlord afterwards of an inn there); that a John Sutherland, an aged man now in Thurso, is their youngest son; and that deponent was much with her grandmother, Isabella Sinclair, in Canisbay, for whose memory she has great respect, regretting she has not more to tell, when by her opportunities she might have had so much.—June 30th, 1890.

Ellen Green (Mrs Donald Bain), widow, sister of Mrs George Sinclair, Halkirk, and aged 70 upwards, depones that she has lived with her grandfather and grandmother at John O'Groats, John Sutherland and Isabella, the only daughter of Robert Sinclair, merchant-burgess of Wick; and further depones that Robert's shop was on the site in the High Street, now occupied by the offices of the Wick parochial board.

This last item of knowledge has appeared before in one of the Broynach letters to the Northern Ensign when discussing this younger son of Donald the Sailor, Donald being the second and last son of the Hon. David Sinclair of Broynach by his marriage in 1700 to Janet Ewen. The exact text of Robert's burgess-ticket, which is now in the possession of his grandson, Robert Green, Wick, brother of Mrs Donald Bain and Mrs George Sinclair, is as follows, provisions being always a portion of his trading :-—

"At Wick, 31st January, 1777, in presence of James Sinclair of Harpsdale, provost of the burgh of Wick, James Miller and John Russell, baillies thereof, and remanent council of the same.  The said day, Robert Sinclair, baker in Wick, was created, received, and admitted burgess and guild-brother of the said burgh, after taking the ordinary oaths thereto belonging, and being solemnly sworn in the common form of burgesses at their admission, with full power to him to haunt, use, and exercise all the liberties and privileges pertaining, or known to pertain, to any burgess or guild-brother in like cases.  In witness whereof, these presents are extracted, by advice of above, and signed by the clerk of court, place, date, and year before said.  ALEX. RUSSELL, clerk of court."  The endorsation of the parchment is " Burgess Act: the Burgh of Wick in favour of Robert Sinclair."  By my personal examination of it, through its possessor's politeness, its size is 6 1/4 inches by 3 3/4, written broad-wise.  To the middle is attached a dark green silk ribbon, 7 inches by l 1/4, in two folds, at the end of which was the wax seal of Wick burgh.  Further details, local evidence, and register records have to be given in this particular section of substantiating the claim of James Sinclair, Mid-Clyth, to be Earl of Caithness.----Yours, &c.,

THOMAS SINCLAIR
Falmouth, July, 1891. "



Offline Tricia MORE

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #131 on: Wednesday 05 September 07 17:45 BST (UK) »
Thanks Peter
I also have a Margaret More b 1731.  ???  - too young I guess.
Then again maybe the MORE or MACKAY bit means a previously married lady  or an illeg birth to a MORE and MACKAY.   I have a few MORE MACKAY marriages!
Jury is out on this one.
Tricia
BAILEY    (HAM/Portsmouth Portsea/1800s);
CORMACK    (CAI/Watten Wick/fam of Magnus C & Jean Taylor m 1739);
CORMACK    (DUR/Sunderland area 1800s/orig from CAI, SCT, 1700s);
JOHNSTON    (CAI/../All);
JOHNSTON    (ARL/Kirn Dunoon/circa 1800 - onwards);
JOHNSTON    (ELN/Prestonpans Tranent/fam of William Johnston Janet Forman);
MCDOUGAL     (ARL/MULL/pre1800 Neil McDougall Effy McPhail);
MCDOUGALL    (INV/Laggan/pre 1800 in Mull Argyll then INV etc);
MORE    (CAI/Wick Sarclet Thurso Orkney/1600

Offline ostler

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #132 on: Thursday 15 January 09 21:40 GMT (UK) »
Apologies for bumping this topic again but I'm even more frustrated than I was before! My problem is there's a very similar family to mine just along the road, and they have the cheek to steal my family's names. :P

I'm descended from Neil Sutherland (1782-1865), who was born in Knockally. His parents, according to his death certificate, were William Sutherland and Ann Sutherland (née Sutherland). I went to New Register House with our very own JenClark a couple of years back, and she found all these death certificates of people whose parents were William and Ann Sutherland! "Great!", thought I. It was even better when I traveled to Dunbeath and there they gave me a family tree with even more descendants of William and Ann, with the bonus of having W&A's parents!!

The fact W&A were from Mulbuie, not five miles up the road from Knockally, didn't really bother me. I mean, how many William and Ann Sutherlands could there be in such a small area? How many, indeed...

When searching for more descendants of the couple, I received a somewhat rude email from one, saying that they had been working on their tree for 30 years blah blah blah and had never come across a Neil before. So I must be wrong.

Well, maybe I was. But how do I prove or disprove it?? That is the question I put to you. How do I differentiate the two families? Are there other families with Williams and Anns as the head??

If any of you feel generous and would help with my digging, feel free. To that end, here are just some of the children of "William and Ann Sutherland" I have found (some as newly as today when I was at NRH):

Adam Sutherland d 26 May 1855 in Knockally. Sounds promising! He was born in Berriedale, according to his death cert, and he was 85 when he died, making his birth date c1770. He had at least six children, and they are all "my" family names (Angus, Neil, William etc).

Robert Sutherland d 1860 at Houstry, Dunbeath. Informant, Donald Sutherland, son. The "Mulbuie" Sutherlands feaure the name Donald a lot. He was 83, so a death date of c1777.

Margaret Sutherland d 4 Feb 1855 at Balnabruich age 74. Widow of Alexander Sutherland. Again, her children's names are "my" family's names. However, seeing her circa birth date as 1781, it's quite close to the Margaret Sutherland on the tree I was given at Dunbeath (next one).

Margaret Sutherland bap 10 Jan 1786 at Golsary. No more information unfortunately.

Then there's Margaret Gunn (née Sutherland) d 23 May 1863 at Banniskirk age 83, whose circa birth date would be 1780.

My Neil Sutherland (who is a definite!) was born 1782 in Rhinsay and is in every census record in Knockally. He had at least 7 children with his first wife (Angus, Adam, Ann, Donald, Mary, Janet and Esther). He had at least 6 children with his second wife (Isabella, Robert, George, Hugh, Alexander, William).

ANd now for the "Mulbuie" Sutherlands in full.

Donald Sutherland (tacksman of Blackness, Midclyth b 1720) m Margaret Sutherland (d 1807, Mulbuie, Houstry, Dunbeath), had eight children:

Helen (b1741)
James (b1745)
Donald (b1754)
John (b1755)
Alexander (b1758)
George (b1766)
Elizabeth (b 17??)
William (b 17??)

William m Ann Sutherland and had:

Donald (b1784)
Margaret (b1786)
Kathrine (b1788)
Esther (doesn't say on the tree, but I found an Esther who d 1855, born c1783)
Jean (b1789)
Helen (b1792)
Ann (b1794)
Elizabeth (b1796)
William (b1798)
Amelia (b1803)

If we add those children to the ones I've found, we've got potentially 16 children. Poor Ann! Who's to say the tree I got at Dunbeath is right anyway? They could have done what I did at first and went, "Oh a child of William and Ann! It must be the same family!" ;)

Err yeah, long post, sorry. Please help. :(
All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler (and all variations!!)

Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul, Small
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)

England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #133 on: Friday 16 January 09 08:29 GMT (UK) »
Hey Bryce...long time no chat  ;D

Bet you are just loving that Sutherland surname now hey!!

How frustrating, I am not sure how much help I can be in Oz mate, unfortunately William and Ann are very common names and it is not at all a surprise that there may be 1, 2 or 3 families having kids around the same time in the same area.....unfortunately our Scottish families weren't the most inventive when it came to names  ::)

But perhaps this can be used to our advantage, remember the Scottish naming pattern (hopefully your families tried to follow this Highland tradition)

First son - father's father
Second son - mother's father
First daughter - mother's mother
Second Daughter - father's mother

So if we look at the famly of William & Ann Sutherland from 'Mulbuie' you have:

Esther (1783) - mother's mother
Donald (b1784) - father's father
Margaret (b1786) - father's mother
Kathrine (b1788)
Jean (b1789)
Helen (b1792)
Ann (b1794)
Elizabeth (b1796)
William (b1798) - mother's father
Amelia (b1803)

So it seems from this tree that William Sutherland's parents were Donald and Margaret (as per the tree) and Ann Sutherland's parents are William & Esther.

Refresh my memory and pop down all the kids we found to William and Ann Sutherland in chronological order with birth places if you have them and we'll see what we come up with  ;)

Jen
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline ostler

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #134 on: Sunday 18 January 09 22:44 GMT (UK) »
Adam Sutherland born c1770, d 26 May 1855 in Knockally (IGI possible: Christening: 09 APR 1774 Latheron)

Robert Sutherland born c1777, d 1860 at Houstry, Dunbeath (IGI possible: Christening: 27 APR 1777 or 18 AUG 1777 Latheron)

Margaret Sutherland born c1781, d 4 Feb 1855 at Balnabruich (IGI possible: Christened: 01 AUG 1779 Latheron)

Margaret Sutherland bap 10 Jan 1786 at Golsary.

Margaret Sutherland (married ? Gunn) born c1780, d 23 May 1863 (IGI possible: Christening: 01 AUG 1779 Latheron)

Neil Sutherland b1782 in Rhinsay, d 1865, Knockally.

Esther Sutherland, b c1783

Donald Sutherland, b1784 (IGI possible: Christening: 13 JUN 1784 or 26 AUG 1784 or 31 DEC 1784 Latheron)

Margaret Sutherland, b1786 (IGI possible: Christening: 01 JAN 1786 or 22 MAY 1786 Latheron)

Kathrine Sutherland, b1788 (IGI possible: Christening: 18 MAY 1788 Latheron)

Jean Sutherland, b1789 (IGI possible: Christening: 18 JUL 1789 or 29 NOV 1789 Latheron)

Helen Sutherland, b1792 (IGI possible: Christening: 01 APR 1792 Latheron)

Ann Sutherland, b1794 (IGI possible: Christening: 22 AUG 1794 Latheron)

Elizabeth Sutherland, b1796 (IGI possible: Christening: 14 MAY 1796 Latheron)

William, b1798 (IGI possible: Christening: 03 FEB 1798 or 19 APR 1798 Latheron)

Emelia Sutherland b 1801, Upper Smerlie, m John Cormack, d 1883.

I'm not sure if Esther is one of "my" William and Ann's children, but Neil has a child called Esther, and it's not all that common up there.
All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler (and all variations!!)

Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul, Small
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)

England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon