1841 Census- William Graham- Dowally Parish

[LUV]

Hi all

Looking for William Graham born 1801 in Sutherland but moved  to Perthshire where he should be by1841.

His wife was a Elspeth the couple could have been living at Croftdavid in 1841 ?

I believe he had a son William born 1830 range and at least 2 daughters?

Appreciate the hand...

LUV

[MonicaL]

Hi Luv

These look like some of the children for William Graham and Elspeth Sim on IGI:

1. ELSPETH GRAHAM  Christening: 12 JAN 1832 Dowally, Perth, Scotland
2. WILLIAM GRAHAM Birth: 08 APR 1830 Dowally, Perth, Scotland
3. JANET GRAHAM Birth: 10 MAR 1829 Dowally, Perth, Scotland
4. ISABELL GRAHAM Christening: 13 MAR 1834 Dowally, Perth, Scotland
5. MARGARET GRAHAM Christening: 27 MAY 1838 Dowally, Perth, Scotland

And the family in 1841, everyone showing as born in the county of Perthshire:

William Graham, 49, Farmer
Peter Elspit, 43
John, 15
Janet, 13
Janet, 12
William, 11
Helen, 10
Isabella, 7
Margaret, 3
James Graham, 53, mason
Margaret Keir, 30, servant
Peter McGlashan, 16, ag. lab.

Address: Croftdavid, Dowally

Regards.

Monica 

[MonicaL]

Luv

William looks to have died by the 1851 Census. Wife Elizabeth is showing as head with her children at Croftdavid. Do you have this entry or would you like me to post it?

Regards.

Monica

[MonicaL]

Why do you think that William came from Sutherland out of interest?

There are likely entries for William and (brother?) James, who shows in the household in the 1841 census, on IGI:

To parents William Graham and Janet Fleming, all actual extract from the OPRs:

1. WILLIAM GRAHAM   Birth: 27 SEP 1791/ Christening: 01 OCT 1791 Dowally, Perth, Scotland, and a second entry: Birth: 27 SEP 1791/ Christening: 29 SEP 1791 Logierait, Perth, Scotland
2. JAMES GRAHAM  Birth: 07 AUG 1787/ Christening: 12 AUG 1787 Dowally, Perth, Scotland
3. MARGRAT GRAHAM Birth: 22 AUG 1785/ Christening: 23 AUG 1785 Dowally, Perth, Scotland

Monica

[LUV]

Hi Monica 

You see I thought I was tracking a William Graham born 1801 in Sutherland parents William Graham and Catherine Ross (from the IGI).   

It is a long, long story but I'll try to give you the just Monica.  John Fleming & Janet Ross had five children in Dowally Parish (1793-1803).  Eventually all five of these children married and by the early 1850's all had immigrated to Canada with their spouses and children!   So ended my line in Perthshire, Scotland. 

However no one was ever able to find John and Janet's marriage and thus, no real confirmation on his Fleming parentage and nothing for Janet Ross other than supposedly she came from north in Rosshire.  So no moving backwards on this couple

However, from some writings of one of the grandchildren of John Fleming and Janet Ross, done in the very late 1890's, they indicated that their Grandmother Janet Ross had a sister Catherine Ross and she had married a William Graham and their son, William Graham, was in Dowally raising his family along side his Fleming cousins circa, 1825 onwards....

Thus I thought the William married to Elspeth Sim fit perfectly, as there was some knowledge of William's children and their spouses and these fit with this William and Espeth!

But now that you pointed out the below...maybe I have another mystery to solve!  As it is interesting that a Janet Fleming is the now the likely mother of this particular William Graham and his brother...!   

PERHAPS, the Fleming grandson had his story mixed up??  I am not sure who this Janet Fleming's parents were??  I'll have to see at IGI if I can find her marriage to William Graham??  This is getting more mind boggling by the moment!   Maybe she was a sister of John Fleming??   What are the chances that John Fleming had a sister who married a William Graham and Janet Ross had a sister who married a WIlliam Graham and which of their sons is this William!   

A big thanks...in the meantime I had decided since I still had just enough credits left at Scotlandspeople I would see if I could find them on the 1841 and I did

However the entry is a bit different  ?  I am thinking, as you later pointed out,  it was two Graham families  living together and I am guessing I have the first page and perhaps the others are on the next page of the census?

The Census lists them as follows:
William 49
William 11
Elspeth 43 (Peter is crossed out before the name)
Janet 12
Isabella 7
Margaret 3
Margaret Keir 30

This is all that is listed.

This would make sense as the family I am thought I was seeking only had these children I believe and a daughter Elizabeth.  And the others??  Not sure but they must be listed as perhaps the children of James Graham 53?  The John, Janet#2, and Helen?   

And like you indicated James is likely the brother of William....


Any thoughts,

thanks
Susan

[MonicaL]

Susan

I'll have a read through in sections otherwise I'll go 

Firstly, on the issue of the 1841 Census entry, the list that I posted all show as residing at Craigdavid which I assume was the family farm. As you know, no relationships are shown within the household so hard to say who what where on the list!

This looks like probably widow Elspeth/Elizabeth in the 1851 census still at Craigdavid, everyone showing as born in Dowally:


Elisabeth Graham  53, Head, Occupier Of 20 Ac Empl 1 Lab, b. Dowally
Jannet Graham    22
William Graham    20
Elisabeth Graham    18
Isabella Graham    16
Margret Graham    12
Angus McMullen    23

Address: Croft david

Monica 

[MonicaL]

...and a possible entry John Fleming in the 1841 census, looks to probably be a widower, living alone:

John, 70, MS, born in Perthshire. Address: Tomb Of Kilmerich, Dowally. So born anytime between 1767-71 approx.

Added:

There are just 3 OPR births or christenings showing in Perthshire for a John Fleming between 1762-71 to the following parents:

1767 - Donald and Isobel Robertson in Logierait
1770 - Alex. and Margaret Forbes in Blair Atholl
1771 - Donald and Christian Cample in Dowally

Now, I'm not familiar with the names of John Fleming and Janet Ross's children, but maybe you can see something that seems familiar in their children's names. I'll check whether any of these parents show as also having a daughter Janet (William Graham's wife).

[LUV]

Hi Monica

John Fleming and Janet Ross had supposedly died by 1830.  There were quite a few Flemings in the area of Dowally and Logierait which is why the search backwards, pre 1800 has been difficult.

I actually found a baptism of a John Fleming to a John Fleming and Margaret Fleming in Dowally 1761 and this couple also baptsied a daughter Jannet in 1754...

Thus I had thought their daughter Jannet would be too old to be this Janet who married William Graham but...alas she is having children in the 1780's so still not too old?

So perhaps it was indeed his sister?!?!

Susan

[MonicaL]

I agree, the John Fleming may not be relevant, but just to close off, from the three couples I posted earlier, two couples had a Janet daughter:

1. Donald and Isobel Robertson had a Janet in 1772 in Logierait

2. Probably more relevant, the following children show to Donald Fleming and Christian Camble (Campbell) in Dowally. Apart from the John shown above b. 1771, we have:

1.  A twin for John: WILLIAM FLEEMING  Birth: 24 MAY 1771/ Christening: 25 MAY 1771 Dowally, Perth, Scotland
2. JANNET FLEEMING  Birth: 21 APR 1773/ Christening: 25 APR 1773 Dowally, Perth, Scotland


Susan, it's getting late here so I'm off to bed now before my eyes (and brain!) go 

Regards.

Monica