Author Topic: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-  (Read 5089 times)

Offline Whaledancer

  • RootsChat Pioneer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 14 October 12 02:45 BST (UK) »
Don't you love it when someone replies to something you posted years ago?   :)

I'm not familiar with Rootschat, having just joined to respond to this message, but we seem to be on the same trail.  Your 3x great grandmother, Hannah Marsden, is my husband's 2x great grandmother.  I'd be happy to make contact and exchange info, if we haven't already elsewhere on the web.

Offline jaycee dove

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 11 March 15 17:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi, I am doing research for a friend and we seem to be on this same course. He is the great grandson of Alice Isherwood - ne Occleston. They married in Manchester in 1886.

Alice was the daughter of David Occleston, who was the younger brother of John in your search. Like his brother he worked for the L N W R in Preston and was an engine driver working up from a fireman. You will see them both together with James and Alice Whittam in the 1851 census referenced earlier in this thread (12 Ladyman St Preston)

This Alice (Whittam) was their mother because she was married to David and John's father (John Occleston) who married her (as Alice Potter) in Penwortham on 26 July 1819. But John died in Leyland on 23 May 1834 and she then remarried to James Whittam on 13 July 1840.

The Preston Chronicle of 13 September 1862 might help answer your question about John's change of status. It reports a fatal accident when he was driving a banking engine pushing a freight train and someone walked across the tracks and died. Though he was not responsible for the death it very likely was highly traumatic.

Hope this helps.

Offline Aulus

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,362
  • The black sheep: Florence Stevenson née Hampson
    • View Profile
Re: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 12 March 15 11:01 GMT (UK) »
Hi, Jaycee and Whaledancer,

And huge apologies to whaledancer, as I don't think I've ever replied to you. How extremely rude of me.  I must have just missed the notification email that someone had posted a reply in this topic.  I'm guessing that your husband is a descendant of Hannah Marsden's daughter, Elizabeth Noble, as - as far as I've found - of Hannah Marsden's children it's only Isabella Noble and Elizabeth Noble who went on to have any children.  Unless, as you say, we've not already met. ;)

Jaycee,

Yes, I've got David (born c. 1827, Walton-le-Dale), but haven't pursued him any further.
A few years ago, I had a brief look at their younger sister, Mary Occleston.  She married John Curwen Roe 14 May 1855 at Preston St John and had three children: John Curwen Roe (1856), Richard Occleston Roe (1857) and James (1862), but I've not traced them beyond the 1871 census.

I've got Alice (Potter/Occleston/Whittam) as marrying James Whittam at Broughton St John on 19 July 1840.  I'll have to try to remember to make a note to recheck the register at Lancashire Records Office sometime.

That newspaper report is a great find.  I always forget to check the newspaper collections: once you start looking, there's all sorts of fascinating stuff hidden away there. It's quite something to see John Occleston's own words in his testimony to the inquest.

In the 22 Jan 1853 edition of the Preston Chronicle, there's an advert for an auction of "valuable timber" to be held "at the house of Mr. John Occleston, Bridge Inn, in Leyland, on Monday January 24th, 1853"

I wonder if it's the same John Occleston who appears a few times in the Preston Chronicle accused of passing counterfeit coins?

Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson
Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith
East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton
East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge
Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens
Marylebone & Sussex: Cole
London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman
Bowland: Marsden, Noble
Shropshire: Guest

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Aulus

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,362
  • The black sheep: Florence Stevenson née Hampson
    • View Profile
Re: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 12 March 15 11:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi again Whaledancer,

I've tried to send you a private message with my email address so we can compare notes, but I'm not sure if you'll be able to access the message as I think you have to have made 3 posts on rootschat before being able to use the private messaging system.

If you don't get the pm, try responding to this a couple of times to bump up your post-count!
Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson
Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith
East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton
East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge
Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens
Marylebone & Sussex: Cole
London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman
Bowland: Marsden, Noble
Shropshire: Guest

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline jaycee dove

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 12 March 15 14:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi, Thanks for the speedy reply. I don't have full access to the newspapers so have not read the full report just the summary. As such I was reading between the lines of what I could read.

My dating of the Alice Occleston/ James Whittam marriage at St John the Baptist, Broughton as being on 13 (not 19) July 1840 came from the Lancashire OPC records. Double checking these just now they do clearly say 13th - though this does not mean they have accurately transcribed it, of course.

To triple check I have accessed the actual record in the Lancashire Banns and I can see the source of possible confusion.

You could easily read the 3 in the entry as a 9. I think it is a 3 - though - if you look at the preceding marriage (which was on the 13th) and the one after it (which was on the 19th) and compare how the clerk writes both the 3 and 9. Doing that suggests this one is the 13th.

But if you have another source that might suggest the 19th that could be right. 

Offline Aulus

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,362
  • The black sheep: Florence Stevenson née Hampson
    • View Profile
Re: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 12 March 15 15:04 GMT (UK) »
Oh yes, definitely 13 July now I look at it on Ancestry.  Previously I'd only looked at it on microfilm at the Lancashire Records Office, I think before Ancestry copied and cleaned up their films. (That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!)

I know Ancestry come in for some stick, but they have done a great job at digitising these microfilms and making them so much more readable than the films themselves.  If only Ancestry would now do all the parish registers held on microfiche at LRO, as I hate microfiche!

Here's the full text of the Preston Chronicle 13 September 1862, p. 4 col. 5

SHOCKING RAILWAY ACCIDENT
Early on Sunday morning a pointsman in the employ of the North Union Railway Company, named James Norris, who resided at Penwortham, met with his death in a very shocking manner.  An inquest was held over the body, on Monday, before Mr. M. Myres.  The following evidence, which will explain the nature of the accident, was adduced:- Henry Edge, of Farington, engineman, deposed: On Sunday morning last, about a quarter past two o'clock, I found the body of the deceased near the outside signal of the North Union Railway at Penwortham, on the down line. He was dead. Both his legs were taken off. I did not examine his body. I was walking on the line at the time, off duty. The deceased was in the habit of walking from Preston to Penwortham along the line. He would be on duty at Preston until four o'clock on Saturday afternoon.
Moses Ormerod, pointsman, of Preston, said: I am pointsman at the Ribble Bridge. On Sunday morning last the deceased passed me at twenty minutes to one o'clock. He was on the line going up the "six-foot" from Preston to Penwortham, and was alone. He did not appear to be any worse for drink.  He used sometimes to go to Penwortham, and came to his work on the line. The first engine that came down the line after he went by would be about twenty minutes past one o'clock - an empty engine with the tender first. The moon was overcase at the time. The men have been told not to go on the line, but they continue to do so. The deceased would know that he was breaking one of the rules; but it was nearer for him to go home that way. The express train passed about four minutes to two o'clock. The empty engine was what is called a bank engine, and it was used to help the goods train up the incline. John Occleston was the driver of it. There is no public crossing at the place where the deceased was found.
John Occleston, engine driver on the London and North-Western Railway Company's line, said: On Saturday night and Sunday morning I was on the line assisting the goods trains with the bank engine. We left Preston at twelve o'clock on Sunday morning. We had to go from Coppul to Preston. When coming towards Preston we had the tender of the engine first. I felt nothing unusual in passing through Penwortham. We looked out for signals, but we cannot see anything on the line at night time. The distance from the station to where the body was found will be a mile. After the deceased was discovered I examined the wheels of the engine, and found some hair on the safeguard of the tender wheel, which corresponded in colour to that of deceased's. I also found marks of corduroy trousers on the tender wheel next to the safeguard. I did not find any blood either upon the tender or the wheels. It was the wheel next to the "six foot" that I found the hair and marks upon.
The jury returned a verdict of "Accidental death." The deceased, who was thirty-five years of age, has left a widow and five little children.
Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson
Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith
East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton
East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge
Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens
Marylebone & Sussex: Cole
London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman
Bowland: Marsden, Noble
Shropshire: Guest

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline jaycee dove

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Where's he appeared from? John Occleston, Leyland, 1823-
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 12 March 15 16:18 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so much for that. I will copy that to David's Great Great Great Nephew whom I told about this today. I know he will be fascinated. There is still a Railway pub in Leyland beside a railway bridge. Not sure if it is the same one. But if it is you can bet he will be heading there for a pint.

Thanks for all the detail about Mary.I had not looked into her yet. Based on the marriage records the Occleston name left the Preston area around the 1880s as I cannot find a later marriage there beyond David Occleston to Sarah Turner in 1881 at St Mary's. Though I have not looked very hard.

I think he and John (David's other child) were the last two Occleston's to marry locally. John seems to have married Margaret Hague in 1878 at St Thomas's. The ages are about right.

Certainly David's third child - Alice - was born in Carlisle, not Preston as the others (though even she was baptised in Preston). As a train driver on the then new main line up toward Scotland Preston and Carlisle were (and, indeed still are) the two major rail centres. So I would imagine they shuttled back and forth a bit.

In 1861 (with Alice just 2) they were back in Preston (at 28 Pedder St) but by 1871 they were now at 9 Charles St in Carlisle with David still driving his trains (he seems to have lived to 1916). His first wife Mary Hodson had died in 1860 and he quickly remarried after the 1861 census (on 5 October) to Margaret Bleasdale (daughter of farmer Thomas Aughton).

They all seem to have been the quick fire remarrying type and the records suggest that your John and my David were close brothers as they seem to have been witnesses at each others various weddings!

David's oldest son, Alice's brother (another John Occleston) was also by 1871 working as a railway fireman at 19. Wonder if he joined the family line as a train driver.

Ancestry has some railway records of the LNWR for the two drivers John and David, by the way, though hard to read and limited in detail.

By 1881 David had left the railways and become an ironmonger. John is elsewhere (not looked for him yet) but the other child David is seemingly assisting his dad in his new business.

Daughter Alice, then 22, has started work as a dressmaker - a profession she kept up after moving to Manchester - somewhere between 1881 and 1886 when she married the already widowed (like everyone in this story!) Henry Isherwood (my friend's great grandfather). He was a handkerchief maker and shirt hemmer so they presumably met professionally first.

By 1891 Alice (now Isherwood) was living in Fallowfield, Manchester and had two of her three children (Henry had 3 from his previous marriage already) and so she was very busy. The two eldest girls from Henry's first marriage seem to have been running her dressmaking business whilst she raised the young ones - one of whom was Clarence Isherwood (b 1889) - my friend's grandfather. 

Clarence was to go on to have an eventful war (he survived the horrors of Gallipoli with the Lancashire Fusiliers in 1915). 

Alice's husband, Henry, ended up seriously ill by 1911 and in a home of some sort in Cheshire leaving her to look after her 3 growing children (24,22 and 11 then). She died on 19 November 1920 living at 1 Birch Grove in Weaste, Salford. She left £68 13 s and 8d to Clarence via probate.

After the war he became a wood carver.