killed in stockton?

[sillgen]

Have you tried writing to Manchester register office and asking them to look for a birth with a father named Joseph?  That may be worth a try.  Does the marriage certificate indicate whether Joseph is deceased?  What is his occupation?   Who are the witnesses?   The other thing that occurred to me was that if by any chance Charles was illegitimate then Joseph may not exist.   Many people made up a father to avoid embarrassment.   They do not seem to name a child after him.   Have you investigated the Jane Smith who is a visitor in 1901 to see if she is a family member?
Just a few thoughts.  This is not an easy one!
Andrea

[bustergut]

You're telling me it's not an easy one, Andrea!
I have traced the father Joseph, born in Cheshire in 1820 and I have his death certificate in Salford in 1866 from a heart problem - he worked at the local gas works, which tallies with the entry on Charles' marriage certificate and with the 1861 census.
Joseph was married to Ellen, who was born in Kendal.
There is a bit of a mystery here which I can't unravel - on all the censuses Charles is down as born in Manchester, but the only Charles I can find who fits the bill was born in Preston in 1859, the son of a Joseph Egerton (deceased) and Ellen (nee Lund), who was born in the Kendal area.
I got to thinking that must be my Charles, and for some reason he was born in Preston, a little out of the way considering the family was definitely in Manchester/Salford in 1851-2, 1857 and 1861.
And why would Joseph be entered as deceased on the birth certificate and parish register, when he did not die until 1866?
By 1861 Joseph, Ellen, Charles and his two older brothers were all living in Salford together - and the two older brothers were born in Manchester (c. 1852) and Salford (c. 1857).
That all points to a coincidence, that there were two Joseph Egertons, both married to ladies named Ellen from the Lancaster/Kendal area, one in Preston, one in Salford/Manchester, the first dying in c. 1859 and my Joseph in 1866.
The mystery deepens in the fact that the "deceased" Preston Joseph married an Ellen Lund, and I have found an Ellen Lund born in the Lancaster/Kendal area in 1830. There is also record of Joseph Egerton marrying and Ellen Lund, but at MANCHESTER Cathedral in 1850
I have been told that bigger coincidences exist, so I cannot take it as read that these ARE the same people and that for some reason Ellen was in Preston when she gave birth to Charles, and decided to claim the father was deceased.
Why would Ellen have entered Joseph as deceased on Charles's birth certificate, in Preston, and yet be back with him in Salford within two years?
None of it makes sense. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the child was someone else's and Ellen went to Preston to hide the birth from Joseph - and that they were later reconciled.
But how on earth can you prove that?!
I have been to Manchester register office but without details I don't want to be paying for an extensive search.

[grogsy]

Hello bustergut

First time I've been on this site after picking up my family tree bumpf after many years of not looking, I was doing a search for the surname Ivin I came across this post of yours from a while back, did you get to the bottom of it?

From the records I have it was Charles son who was killed at work and I was always told it was an accident but I have to say I've never looked into further, I do have a great Aunt that is still alive who I will quiz again on the subject and I do have a scanned in photo of the family that I believe was taken before he was killed which you may or may not have

Charles Henry Egerton
1896–1916
Birth SEP 1896 • Darlington, Durham, England
Death 5 APRIL 1916 • Carlton Iron Works Whitton

My lineage is as follows:

Charles Egerton/ Julia Ivin
>
Alfred Hart/ Jessie Egerton (my great grandparents)

[josey]

Welcome to rootschat grogsy  .

Your information certainly seems to solve the mystery!

Bustergut hasn't been online on rootschat since 2011, but should get an email notification of your reply to their thread and so find out.

As it seems you may be related & could share your research, when you have made 2 more posts [just reply twice to this thread] you can send a personal message to bustergut. You can do this my clicking on the text icon [it'll be green when you are online but you can send a personal message - pm - any time] under bustergut's profile to the left of one of their posts.

[grogsy]

Cheers Josey, I'm going to go back through my tree which I did some years ago to cross check various information and see what new information is available, so you may see posts asking for help from myself as well at some point

[bustergut2]

Hello Grogsy, thanks for the reply
I have since figured out the mystery of Charles' death - but not his birth!
He WAS killed in a hit and run accident, but it was in Bradford, West Yorks, on 14th August 1917. He was working there as a fish fryer - the family had a chip shop or two at that time.
Family legend has it that he was killed in one of the first hit and runs by a motor vehicle recorded in this country, and that is borne out.
It was a shocking time for the family - coming just a few months after his son Charles was killed in the  rail accident to which you refer, at Carlton iron Works, and also around the time that another son Philip, lost an arm and a leg in the WW1 trenches. Philip survived and returned to Stillington, where he ran  a grocer's shop until his death in 1950. My mum remembers him weighing out the flour with a hook attachment on his false arm!

[grogsy]

Its more than I know as didnt know about Phillip.

The photo I have has the following people in I believe

Charles Egerton Jnr, Ada Egerton, Jessie Hart (nee Egerton) Great Grandmother, Phillip Egerton, Charles Egerton (Great Great Grandfather), Lawrence Egerton, Julia Adelaide Egerton (nee Ivin) Great Great Grandmother, Julia Annie Egerton, Harry Egerton, Elsie Egerton, Frank Egerton and Sarah Egerton (Great Great Aunty Sarah)

unfortunatley its 1.5mb so too big to post on here and you may already have it

[bustergut2]

Hello Grogsy, yes, I do have a copy - hanging on my wall, actually! Harry was my granddad.
I actually met your great grandparents when I was a kid (in the 70s) and we had a brief holiday up in the north east, visiting a few of my mum's relatives.
That means one of your grandparents is my mum's cousin. Please let me know who that is - I will be seeing my mum (Mabel Brennan) tomorrow (she's 91) and she would love to know!