St George in the East

[schmick]

Thanks Richard

I now have a copy of Mr Bem's article - a very comprehensive look at the family.
Unfortunately the information fades out before my ancestor but I will keep trying.
I have left messages by 2 methods for Mr Bem but no response so far.

Nick

[tazzie]

   Hi ....

 Could this be another one to add to the list for you ...

 Charles Abraham Vernesobre widower
 Rebecca Dobson spinster
 27 April 1773
 both signed and a witness was Daniel Vernesobre.
  St Helens Bishopgate City Of London.

  Tazzie

[tazzie]

 Also same church the couple from Valda's first reply on page 1.

  Daniel Vernezobre widower of St Helens
  Henrietta Magdalene Saulnierof Christ Church in county of Middlesex widow
  22 April 1777 St Helen Bishopgate City Of London
 witnesses were Esther Vernezobre
                           John Saulnier   
                            John D Vernezobre.

  Tazzie                         

[schmick]

Thanks for all the information
Nick

[richarde1979]

Hello Nick

Yes I can see the problem you have here, I mean she is almost certainly linked to this family because of the rarity of the name, but it is proving that link without a baptism isn't it.

I can see why you think she may be a daughter to David John Vernezobre and Eleanor/Nelly Sullivan.

But I see two problems against that. Firstly the Ellen Vernezobre on the 1851 Census (who I agree with her daughter Hannah Burke/Vernezobre being born in St George in East at same time your looking at, is most likely Madeliane Henriette mother too) would be too young to be the same person as the  Nelly Sullivan who married David John.  Also she is living on a pension from the East India Company, persumably from her widowed husbands service. David John Vernezobre does not have any record of service with them.

The only record with the East India Company is for a "John Daniel Abraham Vernezobre" who was in the companies service from  1775 - 1799 (So must have been born circa 1750-55).  He would therefore seem  the only possible candidate for Ellens deceased husband, and therefore the likely father of both Hannah and Madeliane Henrietta. It might be worth ordering his service record, as it may contain details of his family (never had one myself so can't say for certain what they do or don't contain).

Can't find a baptism for him either, but looking at Google Books I can see part of Daniel Vernezobres will of 1778 and he was definently a grandson to him:

"Vernezobre, Daniel of Great St Helens, merchant, my vault in parish of Christ Church Middlesex, dear wife.................(missing)........................Petersburgh,
160 pounds between my grandchildren John Daniel Abraham Vernezobre, David Vernezobre, Magdelen Henriette Vernezobre, and Henriette Frances Vernezobre; Executors: son John Daniel Vernezobre and friend Peter Guinard.
Dated 20 Nove 1776 (Mark of Daniel Vernezobre) Probate 20 Aug 1778.

Further administration 14 May 1791 to Henriette Vernezobre, spinster, Administratrix to John Daniel Vernezobre, deceased, Peter Guinard, the surviving executor also dying intestate. Daniel Vernezobre was formerly of Mile End Green, but late of Stratford Green."

I believe from the limited I can read of Bems article (again via Google books preview facility), that the middle son of Daniel, John Daniel never married and died single in 1780. So John Daniel Abraham Vernezobres father must surely have been the oldest son Charles Daniel (b.1726) or the youngest David Jean (b.1737). Puzzling why there is no baptisms to be found for any of them. Perhaps they were using a very small independant chapel, the records of which are not publicly held or available? I have heard there are some registers of very small London huguenot chapels held in private hands.

[schmick]

Yes I see what you mean.
According to Mr Bem Hannah was the daughter of David John, born ca 1755, Berbice but lived in UK all of his life who married a non-Huguenot Englishwoman (no name!). He was the son of Charles Abraham from the Dutch branch of the family who owned a plantation in Berbice, Surinam. It was the site of a major slave rebellion in 1762 forcing them to leave. "Hannah Vernezobre-Burke was the last of the family in the UK"
Frustrating the lack of details on this family in the UK.
Nick

[richarde1979]

Hello Nick

It did suddenly occur to me overnight that the daughter of Daniel married her cousin from the Dutch branch, so her children would have still had the 'Vernezobre' surname, I'd missed that  so 'John Daniel Abraham Vernezobre' the grandson in Daniels will, who worked for the East india Company, could be one of her children, and born in Holland, hence lack of baptism in U.K (Which Valda pointed out right at beggining of the thread). If he was the father of Hannah Vernezobre-Burke, perhaps that is what Bem means, as she would have been related to the Dutch branch, Charles Abraham being her grandfather, just through his son John Daniel Abraham rather than David John.

What also makes me think this is he (Daniel) lists the four grandchildren together:

"my grandchildren John Daniel Abraham Vernezobre, David Vernezobre, Magdelen Henriette Vernezobre, and Henriette Frances Vernezobre"

Assuming David is the David John born 1755, he is definently then born to his daughter into the Dutch branch. Magdelen Henriette Vernezobre is almost certianly too, as she joined the French Huguenot church with a testimonial from Uterecht in 1785, her death 1831 in Hackney gives a birth date for her around 1755, (the wedding of Daniels daughter and her Dutch cousin was in 1753 so date fits). So maybe John Daniel Abraham and Henriette Frances are too. None of these appear to be baptised in Britian so makes sense. The answers you are looking for may well lie in the Dutch archives somewhere.

[schmick]

Mr Bem names Jean Daniel as Daniel Vernezobre's eldest son and says he never married.
No mention of a Charles (? died in infancy). The "second" son, David John moved to Russia and went bankrupt in 1764 . He was kept in Russia by his creditors and had 12 children there. Some of these are in the IGI for the British Chaplaincy of St Petersburg but no John Daniel. No mention of whether they returned to England.
Does point more to the Dutch connection I think.

Nick

[richarde1979]

Nick

If I was you I would definently get in touch with the British Library (http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/bldept/apac/apacoll/apac.html) for a copy of his East India Company Officer Cadet Papers:

Vernezobre, John Daniel Abraham  IOR/L/MIL/9/255/22v, 30  [n.d.]

Thinking logically if they paid a pension out after his death, it should surely give details of his wife and any dependants.

Perhaps John Daniel Abraham was also born on the plantation in Berbice, 1750's in Surinam? What records, if any survive, from there who knows! I wonder where Bems info on John David being born there comes from? He (Kazimier Bem) seems to have started a Polish Huguenot Society about ten years ago, but it doesn't seem to be going any more, and can't find any recent posts for him anywhere.