Author Topic: smythe morse chisnall & hart  (Read 6156 times)

Offline Perri

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smythe morse chisnall & hart
« on: Monday 05 July 10 19:24 BST (UK) »
Hello Everyone I am trying to find information on gertrude edith grace smythe (brighton 1911 aged 18) I have the family line but cannot connect her into the tree is their anyone that can help as I have several options on who her mother may have been. I cannot find her birth record. Thank you

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Offline Dazey999

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #1 on: Monday 05 July 10 19:42 BST (UK) »
Hi Perri - who is your Gertrude with in 1911?  Does it give her place of birth?  Have you found her in 1901?  Dazey

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Offline Perri

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #2 on: Monday 05 July 10 20:01 BST (UK) »
Hi Dazey, complicated; in 1901 she is with gertrude morse ( i think her grandmother but in 1911 gertrude morse  is down as her mother. In 1901 she is with gertrude morse but is down as a boarder. the birthplace is down as islington on one census and camden on the other

Offline Dazey999

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #3 on: Monday 05 July 10 20:56 BST (UK) »
I'm sorry Perri - I can't find Gertrude Smythe or Gertrude Morse on the 1901 or 1911.  Like you, I can't see her birth either.  Dazey

Offline teaurn

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #4 on: Monday 05 July 10 22:16 BST (UK) »
Hi Perry,

Just trying to make sense of your post.

Are you saying that you have found Gertrude in 1911 in Brighton.  and somewhere else on the 1901 census and she has the same name but living with different people.

You say she is 18 which I make birth year of approx 1893.  does this sound right

T
Middlesex   Burnett  Clark   Potter    Cleary    Avery    Moore Howard Jode Keating
Norfolk    Rudd    Twite    Hudson    Chapman Moore Spink Adams
Suffolk    Horne    Cadge    Sutton    King    Adams
Essex    Cable    Wright                         Cumberland  Forbes
Somerset Clarke (pre 1800)                  Cambridgeshire Muncey Parcell
Devon  Flashman                                   Limerick    Hannigan
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Offline Perri

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #5 on: Monday 05 July 10 22:51 BST (UK) »
Hi Gertrude E G Smythe is living with her family.
In 1901 aged 8 she is down as grace and as a boarder the head is Ernestine hart. The older gertrude Smythe aged 54 I know is Ernestine's mother but the older gertrude is listed as relative - location is Ramsgate Kent
In 1911 she is still with the older gertrude but is listed as daughter to her. location - brighton
1892/93 is about the right year but I cannot find any record of a birth
The birth place is listed as Islington in one census and camden on the other - perri

Offline Roy G

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 05:34 BST (UK) »
Hi
In the GRO Marriages of the September quarter of 1921 you have.
Gertrude E G Smythe married Henry T Hughes in Southwark    (Ref 1d 54)
Purchasing that certificate should give an address, and the name & occupation of her father.

By the way, her being registered in 1901 as an 8 year old border in a residential school.  Have you looked to see if a sibling was attending the same school?

One suggestion I could make is that her birth was actually registered as the following:
Births September quarter 1892 , Hart Gertrude Grace         Lambeth    1d   539
That could indicate that Ernestine Hart was her actual mother, and Gertrude Smythe (who you say was Ernestine's mother) her grandmother.
(Note: The 1901 census only has 1 London born Gertrude Hart of 7-9 years age and she was a Gertrude M Hart)

Roy G

Offline Perri

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 08:19 BST (UK) »
Hi, the marriage is correct and I have the certificate. her father is listed as John Grantley Smythe (deceased) who was older Gertrude's husband but I have him as dying the year before G E G smythe was born. So I believe her grandfather has been listed as her father on the marriage certificate.
She was listed as boarder in the private family home in 1901.
I did wonder about Ernestine being the mother of GEG but her husband had died some time before.
Perri

Offline Roy G

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 15:44 BST (UK) »
Sorry to say this quite so bluntly, but even in the Edwardian days, when one partner died, there was nothing to stop a remaining partner like Ernestine going on to have another relationship without going through the formalities of a marriage.  Instead of openly stating any offspring of that relationship was theirs however, a grandparent generally accepted full liability and brought their grandchild up pretending the child was actually theirs.

I agree that nothing is certain until you see the birth certificate, but if there is nothing on record circa 1892 under the name of Gertrude Smythe, the one for Gertrude Hart (Mother Ernestine?) seems a probable solution.  You may see it as the loss of a certificate fee, but on the other hand, if it proves positive, your question will be answered.
Roy G