Author Topic: smythe morse chisnall & hart  (Read 6078 times)

Offline Roy G

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 16:54 BST (UK) »
I've been trying to do some cross checking to see if I have missed something, but have now got rather confused.
 Firstly, I wanted to find the grandmother Gertrude Smythe/Morse with daughter Ernestine on the 1881 census, but drew a blank.  I then checked the 1911 Brighton census but there were no no Gertrude Smythes (when there should be two) but plenty of Gertrude Smiths.
I also looked for Ernestine Smythe's marriage but drew a blank there too.  So can you help by filling some of the gaps and putting an age and place of birth on Gertrude Smythe the elder and Ernestine to help me find them in the censuses and GRO records?

I did try under the Morse name too, but only came up with a Gertrude with a younger sister called Ernestine
So where am I going wrong?
Roy G


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Offline Perri

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 18:44 BST (UK) »
Hi
This is what I know
1911 gertrude smythe 67 head born in brighton (g j )
         grace smythe 18 stage dancer (this is gertrude edith grace GEG ) born in camden town
Location Newington London
1901 ernestine Hart 36 head
         phillippa 16 (ernestines daughter)
         dolly 13 (ernestines daughter)
         ruby 11 (ernestines daughter)
         gertrude smythe 54 (ernestines mother) (g j)
         stanley d'eath 10 margaret wyatt 2, norah smith 5 months (three children all down as boarders.
         grace smyth 8 (GEG) born islington also a boarder
1891 gertrude i (should be j) smythe 45 head (g j)
         agnes 21 (daughter ) also known as charlotte ernestines sister
         ernestine hart 27
         Phillippa 6 edith 3 (dolly) ruby (all ernestines daughters)
1881 edith morse head 53
         gertrude smythe (g j) 34
         agnes 11 - ernestines half sister
         gertrude chisnall - this is ernestines sister 18
         edith chisnall - this is ernestine - edith ernestine chisnall
Perri


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Offline Perri

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 19:03 BST (UK) »
hello I have just checked my records and I have the certificate for gertrude grace hart. It does not have the right details so i had disregarded it
Perri

Offline Roy G

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 21:36 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that, unfortunately I have found as you have, that it does not help much.

1881 shows Gertrude senior was an actress, and it is therefore quite possible that Smythe was a ficticious stage name.  Furthermore, her age of 34 gives a birth year of circa 1847, but there were only 4 Gertrudes registered as born in Brighton between 1844 & 1848, Gorringe, Mills, McClaine and Mowbray.  A Gertrude Young was also born in the Steyning district.   So is her first name of Gertrude false as well?

There is no sign of Ernestine with the family in 1881, only the grandchildren who also seem to be destined to be performers.

No Gertrude Smythe born Brighton on my 1901 index, but I do have her and Grace on the 1911.  A few other Smythes too that could be Grace's siblings.

Not much help I regret, so I really need to go back over everything and will get back later if I can unravel a little bit more of the family story.
Roy G


Offline toni*

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 21:51 BST (UK) »
s this relevant

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jassie/theatre/glm/index-page47.htm

i wonder how SMYTHE is pronounced ? who would have filled int he census schedule? if it was the Smythes then ok but if it was someone else it could easily be mistaken for Smith

a married womans husband is regarded to be the father of her child whether he is or isn't maybe the vicar / curate etc. made a note in the margin of her bp. if of course she was bp.

have you checked for 'female' smythes births? a name can be added up to a year later but the index is not amended

PS there was a Gertrude SMythe b. 1895 NSW

Holman & Vinton- Cornwall, Wojciechowskyj & Hussak- Bukowiec & Zahutyn, Bentley & Richards- Leicester, Taylor-Kent/Sussex  Punnett-Sussex,  Bear/e- Monkleigh Gazey-Warwicks

UK Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchive

Offline Perri

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 06 July 10 22:23 BST (UK) »
Hi RoyG thanks hope to hear from you later

Hi toni* Thank you for the link it does apply to the family. I will check for female smythe births

Perri

Offline Roy G

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 07 July 10 06:44 BST (UK) »
I can only deal with this piece meal but a major problem is we are dealing with those in the acting profession who are known to be highly mobile and not very constant when it comes to keeping the names they were given at birth.

Gertrude Grace Smythe born c1892 M Cert lists John Grantley Smythe as her father.  That is believed to be false, but if the birth year is correct, John's death in Southam district in the December quarter of 1893 does make that a possibility.  (this information conflicts with your earlier findings where you suggest John had died before a possible date of conception)

Until now, and for reasons shown later, John has rightly been thought of as a grandparent, as has his wife, Gertrude Chisswell, who he married in Dover in 1868.  However, on the later censuses John's widow Gertrude indicated she was the mother of the Gertrude Grace Smythe born c 1892.  Again not impossible, but it would have meant Gertrude Grace Smythe arrived when she already had another daughter from her previous marriage who was also called Gertrude (Gertrude Chisnall junior). 
Note on age:  Gertrude Smythe senior says she was 54 in 1901 and 34 in 1881 (giving a YOB c1846) making her 46 when Gertrude Grace Smythe was born and about 15 at the time of her first marriage.  (Born 1846 married 1861)

The 1881 census has Charlotte Agnes Smythe from the above union who was born in Weymouth 1869, and two other children from Gertrude's previous marriage.

Gertrude Smythe's previous marriage was to Arthur Henry Chisnall (not Chisswell) in Brentford in June quarter of 1861 when she could only have been about 15 (if you go by the census).  Her maiden name was given as Gertrude Johnnes Morse.
   (could that be Johanna and was she older than she said on the census returns?)
      Have you got her as Morse, or them as Chisnall/Chisswell on the 1861 census?
The 1881 census also shows that her earlier children included Gertrude Chisnall (born Kingston district 1862) & Edith Chisnall born Kensington 1864, but makes no mention of an Ernestine whose birth was also c1864.  It transpires that Edith prefered to use her second name of Ernestine. 

Gertrude Chisnall (born Kingston district 1862) the eldest daughter married in St Giles in 1882.
Edith Ernestine Chisnall married Michael Hart in Marylebone in 1883 and although Michael is said to have died prior to 1893, I have yet to verify that.  (Too Many Micheal Hart deaths on FreeBMD)

The point has already been made that it is highly unlikely that Gertrude senior should have two daughters both called Gertrude, one born in 1862, the other in 1892, but there is also uncertainty whether Gertrude 1892 was an illegitimate daughter of Ernestine, concieved after the death of her husband Michael.  There was a birth recorded on the GRO index for a Gertrude Grace Hart (Lambeth Sept quarter 1892) that would certainly fit, but you say you have a copy of that and the details are such that you felt it not to be the Gertrude you seek. 
   (Verify whether you have Gertrude Grace Hart bn Lambeth district 1892 or Gertrude Beatrice Hart bn Islington District 1891)

The Gertrude born c 1844-1846 mother or grand mother of Gertrude Grace Smythe, declared on the censuses that her birthplace was Brighton and we know from her first marriage that her birth name was Gertrude Johnnes Morse.  But there were no Morses born in Sussex 1840-1848, and neither the IGI nor the GRO has any Gertrude Morses registered as born anywhere in England in that period.  So not only is the grand daughter Gertrude born c1892 a problem, the grand mother who said she was born Brighton 1844-6 is as well. 

Perhaps finding Edith Morse born c 1827 with her daughter Gertrude? born c 1844-6 on the 1851 census would be a useful start point to begin to unravel the the twists and turns in your difficult problem.

Lastly, you have said the 1892 Gertrude "Smythe" was also known as Grace.  There is another researcher who may interest you on Genes Reunited, for  in her family tree she has a Grace Smythe born in an unknown location c 1892,

Looking back, a can of worms comes to mind!!!!
Roy G

Offline Roy G

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #16 on: Friday 09 July 10 20:58 BST (UK) »
Since writing the preceding chapter, a good colleague has sent me her findings on the 1851 census.

1851 Census living at Drayton Green Ealing Middlesex HO107 1699 f73 p11
Edward Wm Morse,       Head,   Mar,      70,        No profession,     George,   Hanover Square .
Edith Joanna Morse      Wife                 28             Cornwall , Polperro
Gertrude Joanna Morse Dau                  9             Sussex , Brighton

That confirms that Gertrude's middle name was Johanna rather than Johannes, and that she was indeed older than she admitted.  Her birth year was closer to late 1841 to mid 1842 rather than 1846, making her over 50 when her daughter/grand daughter Gertrude Grace Smythe (or as I think Hart) was born in 1892.  But I have yet to find any evidence that she was married to Edward, or that Gertrude born c1841 was officially registered under his surname.  Perhaps she was registered under her mother's maiden name?

I was also shocked about the 42 year age difference between Gertrude's mother and father, so suggest that as the info came from a transcript, it should be verified from the original.  I have no reason to doubt if though, for according to another document on the Internet (Slaughter Family History) Edward was born about 1777 in Drayton House, Ealing, Middlesex, and died in 1863 in the Brentford district of London.   Edward & Edith (& perhaps Gertrude) should therefore appear on the 1861 census, and possibly without Gertrude on the 1841 census of the Brighton area.

Suggest you also have a look at Mary Anstance Morse who died in Brighton late 1840.  The reasoning behind this suggestion is that the previously mentioned Slaughter family history shows that they consider there was a family connection. 

Roy G

Offline Perri

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Re: smythe morse chisnall & hart
« Reply #17 on: Friday 09 July 10 22:31 BST (UK) »
Hello Roy G
Thank you for all the information and work you have done on this. I too believe she is a hart (Edith Ernestine's daughter but cannot prove it. Michael Domville Hart was a medic and died abroad in Jamaica I think aged 27. I have seen the slaughter stuff but thank you for directing me to the Mary Anstance Morse I have a lot to digest and thank you again
Perri