Lulworth Cove, Mervyn O'GORMAN photos?

[Mako23]

kilkennylass

Just some extra points about the girls on the beach

At high magnification the girl in the middle does not look that young at all, or in the end could it be Mervyns wife. The way she is dressed is very mature and formal

The assumption is that these photos were taken at the same day as the pictures of Christina but if so a few questions have to be asked
Why is this photo not at the same quality, the colors are not so deep and vibrant surely Christina's red hair and Shaw should be a more vibrant red but it isn't...its washed out in color. Where is the other two dresses that Christina wore not in the picture. I cant see any bag that could be holding these dresses or to be exact one bathing suite and one jump suite.

It could be argued that they were removed from shot but if so why wasn't all the other junk removed from short as well.

The simple answer is that they shots were taken at different times if not years apart.

Considering that Mervyn and his wife were childless maybe they took a strong bond to there nieces. Its not uncommon for childless couples to become absolutely potty over there nephews and nieces. In post Victorian times maybe even more so.

I can well believe that Mervyn took his nieces on multiple trips over the years.  Mervyn being a car enthusiasts I bet they loved going out in trips with him.

kilkennylass you made the point that these girls could be great nieces from one of Mervyns wife brothers. Considering that she was childless the they were grand nieces wouldn't make much difference. I think that this area might need to be looked at closer

kilkennylass wrote
I'm confident that the two girls by the wall are the two younger girls from the '3 girls on beach' image.....but more importantly I may have found photos of Winifred & Gillian together as children, its a b&w photo dated 1901, and the same person has also posted photos of Gillian from 1926 and later.  I've contacted the person who posted the images asking for confirmation of the identities, date taken etc, and I've sent them the 'christina' photos in case they weren't aware and can either confirm/deny the connection themselves, or pass them onto a family member who can. 




kilkennylass Any url links or pictures you can post would be greatly appreciated also great detective work done by you


You also wrote There are 3 sisters in Florences (Mervyn's wife) family, who match in age (and thus could match the 3 girls on the beach) so there is still that line of inquiry

Can you post some more details on this please ie name birth dates etc and genealogical links


Regards Mako

[kilkennylass]

Hi Mako,

"The assumption is that these photos were taken at the same day as the pictures of Christina but if so a few questions have to be asked
Why is this photo not at the same quality, the colors are not so deep and vibrant surely Christina's red hair and Shaw should be a more vibrant red but it isn't...its washed out in color. Where is the other two dresses that Christina wore not in the picture. I cant see any bag that could be holding these dresses or to be exact one bathing suite and one jump suite"

These images aren't from photographs, they are from autochrome plates, which where essentially glass plates with coloured potato starch on them.  Since each plate used would have been prepared by hand, and thus unique, I would fully expect there to be a difference in colour saturation even on plates exposed on the same day. Heres a link which explains it better ! http://www.nationalmediamuseum.org.uk/nmem/autochrome/Technical_Details.asp

My guess would be that the 'beach' photos were one day, and the 'garden' photos another but all within a few days/a week of each other. 

"At high magnification the girl in the middle does not look that young at all, or in the end could it be Mervyns wife. The way she is dressed is very mature and formal"

Mervyn's wife would have been 59-60 in 1913, and the lady in the middle looks older than the other two, but perhaps not that old.....but perhaps its a governess ? On the 1911 census Winifred & Gillian are living in Suffolk with their parents, and a 35 yr old governness. 

With regards to Florences great nieces ... one of her elder brothers was
Frederick Charles Rasch (1843-1887) who married in 1871 & had one daughter
Mildred Alice Sothern Rasch (1879-1965)
who married in 1879 and had 1 son and 3 daughters ...
the daughters are Winsome Joyce (1897-2000), Joan Mildred (1900-1948) and Jocelyn Maureen (1903-2000)

Therefore in 1913 the sisters were 16, 13 and 10 respectively.  In the 1911 census the sisters are visiting their paternal grandparents in Bath, and their mother Mildred and her 2nd husband were living in Devon.  All 3 sisters married and had children.
 

[kilkennylass]

I've read a copy of Mervyn's fathers will.  He died a very wealthy man indeed, and through that will discovered another brother of Mervyn's, Michael Conolly O'Gorman b 1885 d 1957.  He does marry, but in 1916 and although I haven't found any children from the marriage, its pointless as clearly their child could not be on a beach in 1913. Dead end.

Mervyns' brothers, half brothers and half sisters are .....

Edmond Anthony O'Gorman (b 1821 d 1912)
married 3 times,had 10 children, and at least 7 grandchildren

Married 1st 1856 Sophia Agnes Pereria (1825 -1865)
     i Joseph Vincent (1857-1932) Roman Catholic priest/died without issue

     ii Francis Edmond (1859-1923)
            married 1886 Constance Pownall (1869-1944)
            i Francis Hugh (1888-1955)
            ii Winifred Constance (1893-1976)
            iii Gillian Dorothy (1897-? )

     iii Ignatius Tomas (1860-1941) Roman Catholic priest/died without issue

     iv Mary Alicia (1861-1871)

     v Mary Anglea (1863-1934) unmarried/died without issue

Married 2nd 1865 Ellen Whyte (1826-1867)
     vi Edmund John (1867-1933) Roman Catholic priest/died without issue

Married 3rd 1871 Margaret Elizabeth Barclay Crawford (1849-1899)
     vii Mervyn Joseph Pius (1871-1958)
          married 1898 Florence Catharine Rasch (1854-1931)
          no issue

     viii Cecil Crawford (1873-1943)
            married 1904 Encarnacion Moreno
            ix Francis Javier Juan (1905-1982)
            x Edmundo (1906-1995)
            xi Margarita (1908- ?)

     ix Bernadine Mary (1874-1943)
            married 1906 Eva Mary Johnson
            xii Margaret Elizabeth (1920- ?)

     x Michael Conolly (1885-1953)
            married 1916 Elsie Louise Metzgar (1884-1852)
            no known children

In Edmonds will, all the children are named one way or another, only one child pre-deceased him. Our Merv was the last surviving child when he died in 1958. Within Mervyns' immediate female family (sisters & nieces), no one is named Christina, and everyone, except Michael in 1885, is born as Gorman and dies as O'Gorman.

Of all Mervyn's nieces, only two are of the approx correct age in 1913, and they are the two daughters of Francis Edmond, Winifred Constance (b1893) and Gillian Dorothy (b1897).  I have been in contact with a cousin of these two and asked them if 'Christina' could be them.  The cousin seemed confused as to what I was asking, and merely replied that 'Christina O'Gorman' wasn't a member of her family, so I've sent another message just clarifying the request, to which I have not yet had a further reply.  This cousin does have photos posted on their ancestry.co.uk tree of Winifred & Gillian as children, and Gillian as an adult, and if I haven't heard back from them within the week I might post the photos here for you all to make up your own minds as to any similarities (I don't see any myself) 

The name 'Christina' does crop up within Mervyn's paternal line.  Mervyn's aunt was Maria Christina (she dies without issue in 1897), his great aunt was also Maria Christina (she marries but I haven't yet found any children yet),  and his great great aunt was Christina (who marries and does has a daughter called Christina but I can't find any marriage and/or children for her...but then Irish records from the mid-1700's are not abundant, accurate, or online !)

So, thats where I'm at.  I'm moving onto the images themselves, I've been told there are unpublished images of Mervyn's within the Royal Photographic Society collection.  Maybe they will shed some light

[kilkennylass]

No sooner do I say there are unpublished images of O'Gormans in the RPS collection, one appears ! This is also credited as being 'Christina' and also taken in 1913 by Mervyn O'Gorman, this is a bromide print rather than an autochrome image so has little colour.

[kilkennylass]

Heres the new image alongside 3 others of her for comparison ...

[Rusoftheeast]

She looks quite different here.
Surprising that the photo was taken in the same year as the other color photos.She looks older than she was when the portrait was taken but slightly younger than when the other color photos were taken.
Whenever the new photo was taken,the Christina being just a model picked off of the street theory I think can be crossed out.There must have been some connection between the two(Mervyn and Christina).

Given the portrait with her name on it,I personally believe "Christina" was indeed named Christina or at least her pet name was.There were some Christinas in the family tree as well.But if the cousin of Winifred indeed denies the connection,that she is not related to Christina,there would be no candidate from Mervyn family

In the event of that,I would guess Christina was a daughter or niece of his friend out of some photograph club or something.

But what makes it difficult though,is that nothing is sure about literally everything.Photographer could have been anybody,Christina could have been Winifred,the photo could have been taken in 1910.

Ultimately,I want to ask the RPS how they got it and when and from whom.

Nevertheless it is amazing to see new photos of Christina we have never seen before after nearly a month of fruitlessness.Its quite motivation for us all.
Amazing work you do Kilkennylass





  edit:  I just noticed that this http://www.ssplprints.com/image/198361/ogorman-mervyn-portrait-of-christina-in-a-garden-c-1912 says this one was taken in 1912.Could be a typo though.
And they also say the portrait one was taken in 1913 which apparently cant be true.
Seems like we have to take these basic facts with a pinch of salt.
http://collectionsonline.nmsi.ac.uk/detail.php?type=related&kv=8448246&t=objects

[kilkennylass]

I would be astonished if they where all taken in the same year, and i agree of having to take the dates with a pinch of salt. (some esteemed establishments can't even get the images the correct way round !)

I would certainly like to see the evidence of Mervyn O'Gorman as the photographer.  Yes he had the means and the time to indulge such a hobby, but he also had many artistic friends through which he could have 'ended up' with the glass plates and they erroneoulsy got attributed to him.  Having said that, I'm sure by now if they weren't his original images it would have been questioned/found out.

For ease of discussion, I've put all the images together, and numbered them. 

Image 1 could be the only source for the 'Christina' name.  Why put it on there if it wasn't her real name ? But was it put on there when the image was taken, or was it added later by someone else ? Why is this the only studio photo ? Is it even the same girl as image 11 ?

The garden photos I'm fairly convinced where produced on the same day.  The flower bouquet 'Christina' is holding as she sits by the pond (image 3) seems to be the bouquet that, lets call her 'Green Girl',  is holding in image 5.  Also images 4 & 5, seeminly different girls, identical backgrounds (although one has been flipped horizontally).  There is nothing to really identify the location, except the pond, although it seems more intimate than just a hotel, or them visiting a country house/stately home.  'Christina' has taken off her stockings and shoes to sit in the garden, and by the pond.....is that something you would do at your hotel or if visiting a country house ?

The beach photos are definitely Durdle Door Beach, not Lulworth Cove as often stated....although both locations are only about a mile 1/2  apart.  The boat in image 6, appears in the background of image 9 but very hard to tell if its in the b/ground of image 10.

As to dates, if garden & beach are indeed 1913, i would say image 1 is of a younger her.  Image 1 1910-11 ? image 11, 1914 ?  Doesn't help we have no idea how old she is in any of them ! I would put her at about 16-17.....

There are still the possible candidates on Mervyn's wifes side...her 3 great neices.  Maybe a call out on social media for any descendants is a way forward....

Anyway, I've made a request to visit the RPS collection (which is now held at the National Media Museum in Bradford)....be interesting to see what crops up

[Rusoftheeast]

I am fairly convinced that the image 1 and 11 are of the same girl that we are looking for.Different lighting and was taken from a lower angle and the image 11 being taken possibly years later.

All the color photos must have been taken over a few days at most,She is wearing the same top and the belt in the image 2,3,4 and 9 as well.With all the set-up I would imagine they spent a whole day taking photos at the beach,are there any houses near the beach though?Even with a car of Mervyns their mobility must have been limited in 1913.The pond and garden must be not that far from the beach.

And Lastly,if you look at some bigger and better quality pictures you can see the girl in the image 5 bears some great resemblance to the image 10 - her strong chin and straight nose,and the blonde hair color and its length.While not convinced,I do think the girl from the 5 is the same girl in the 10.

Well lets see what the cousin of Winifred and RPS say.It would be lovely to see the actual photos but I live in the far east of Russia so England is literally the opposite side of the world to me.I would have to leave the visit to you

I hope the visit yields some new progress there.


I going to leave some good quality photos where you can enlarge them huge on the screen.

http://1.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Christina-5.jpg

http://1.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Christina-7.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iuu5oDU-gHI/VSQsVhgOIPI/AAAAAAABaS4/o2JLCoDwS_s/s1600/Mervyn%2BO%E2%80%99Gorman%E2%80%99s%2BDaughter%2Bin%2B1913%2B%282%29.jpg

http://cdn.visualnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Christina-in-red-7.jpg

[LizzieL]

Just read through the thread - fascinating story.
The garden pictures look like they would have been taken in late May / early June - lilac in full flower. The formal garden with rectangular pond looks like there are geraniums in pots. This might indicate the garden owner had a glass house where they had been overwintered and brought into flower and put outside after last frost. The girl in red against the wall has picked a lilac, looks like the cut stalk across right upper sleeve. Would you do that if it wasn't your garden? The bouquet which the other girl is holding and features in the pond picture looks like flowers recently cut from the garden.
Could the house be owned by a friend of Mervyn's, be situated close to Lulworth / Durdle Door and the girls are the daughters (or related in some way) to the owner of the house rather than related to Mervyn.
The garden looks quite substantial, with old walled garden, possibly with outbuildings / bothy behind (roof visible over the wall). The formal part looks as if it was more recently built judging from style and stonework - Edwardian?.
The nearest large house I can think of would be Lulworth Castle. Although one website did suggest it was Rempstone Hall near Corfe. But that sounds a bit far to pop down to the beach at Durdle.