Kyrkes at Gwersyllt

[IvanKing]

Response to interalia
Thanks, you've added a bit more to resolving the riddles of the Kyrkes.  Incorporating what you have given, and my searches, I get the following:

RICHARD VENABLES KYRKE (Snr) (1792 - 1868)
Married first:  Harriet Ann Jones (marriage probably was about 1820, but don't know where)
     and only child seems to be RICHARD VENABLES KYRKE (Jnr) (1822-1899), who married
     Fanny Warbrick in 1849, and had 3 children:
             1)RICHARD HENRY VENABLES KYRKE (1821-1896), who married twice and seems to have
                   had only one child EVELYN ANNE/ANNIE VENABLES KYRKE (1883-1948), who
                   married John Spottiswoode.
             2)DORA VENABLES KYRKE (1851-1904, who married Joseph Drake and does't seem
                  to have any children that I can find
             3)ARTHUR VENABLES KYRKE (1855-1921), who married Annie Upham Dommett and
                  worked as a solicitor in Chard with her father, and had 6 children I can find

Married second: Jane Frances Horseman (marriage 1832 at Toxteth Park Liverpool), and there
      seem to be 11 children:
             1)WILLIAM HENRY KYRKE (1833-1922) .. found him in 1871 census, with mother
                      Jane in Hoylake, Cheshire, but can't find him elsewhere
             2)EDMUND KYRKE (you give birth year of abt 1837 which aligns with the 1861 Census
                      when he is a sailor, with his father in Wales and mother in Hoose Cheshire.  There is
                      an Edmund Kyrke in 1841 census, aged 6 [ie birth abt 1835], living in Toxteth Park
                      in household with Amelia Horseman,who I guess would be his mother's sister.  Can't
                      find him elsewhere.
             3)AMELIA FRANCES KYRKE (she was one of my waifs and strays - didn't know who she
                      belonged to, so thanks for giving her to Richard and Jane. Found her in 1861, 71
                      and 81 census as governess/school teacher, but then she disappears, unless she
                      is the Amelia/Amy F Richardson in the 1891 and 1901 census, but I can't find
                      any marriage.  There is death of Amelia F Richardson at right age in 1926;
                      and deaths of Amelia Kirk at right age in 1908 and 1932.  So don't know what
                      might the correct one.
             4)ELINOR VENABLES KYRKE (she was buried 10 Apr 1841 in Wrexham or close by - the
                      Flintshire records office has copy of her burial certificate with other papers.  Don't
                      know when she was born - can't find anything on BMD.  I assume she was daughter
                      of Jane, rather than of Harriet, but no evidence to hand for which one was her
                      mother.
             5)CHARLES EDWARD KYRKE (baptised at Wrexham 13 May 1836.  Died Jun qtr 1838
                      in West Derby)
             6)ARNOLD JAMES KYRKE (baptised 2 Mar 1838.  Died Mar qtr 1840 in Wrexham district
                      - presumably at home at Summer Hill)
             7)ELINOR JANE KYRKE (baptism 1 Mar 1843 at St George, Douglas, Isle of Man.  Then
                      see her in 1891 census with sister Mary at Great Cosby - no other census
                      references that I can see.  Died Dec qtr 1933 in Stroud, Gloucestershire).
             8)JAMES ARNOLD KYRKE (born about 1845 France, married Maria Keen Viney in 1866,
                      and died Mar qtr 1931 in Croydon.  10 children I have been able to find)
             9)MARY ISABELLA KYRKE (born about 1847 France.  Then is governess/teacher in each
                      census from 1861, and died Mar qtr 1933 in Cirencester.)
           10)GEORGE ALBERT KYRKE (born about 1850 France and died Jun qtr 1923 in Hackney.
                      He's in the 1871 and later censuses, but can't find him in 1861 when many of the
                      rest of family are back in UK.
           11)VERNON KYRKE (born about 1851 in France - not 1841.  I find him in 61 and 71 census,
                      but not later.  No death in BMD that I can find.

So, Richard Venables Kyrke (Snr) was born and lived around Wrexham till about 1841-1842, then went to Isle of Man for a short period (assuming he was there with wife when Eleanor Venables Kyrke was born); then about 1844 they moved to France (to Avranches, or Granville, in Normandy) - don't know why they did this or what he did in France -  and sometime before the 1861 census moved back to England/Wales.  A couple of the children don't appear in the censuses till after 1861 so it may be that they remained in France after parents and younger siblings returned to England.

[IvanKing]

A few questions now:

a) there's a Frederick Kyrke born in Wrexham district in Jun qtr 1841.  Is he another  son to Richard and Jane?

b) who's the Fanny Venables Kyrke born in Wrexham District in Mar qtr 1853.  Is she a final daughter of Richard and Jane when they moved back from France, if they moved back by then;  or is she a daughter for Richard (Jnr) and Fanny, born between Dora and Arthur - the latter option sounds the most logical.

c) who's the Mary A Kyrke born and died Dec qtr 1866 in Clerkenwell, London?  Is it the first child of James Arnold and Maria??

d) who's the Margaret Kryke who died Mar qtr 1844 in Bolton District (Manchester)?  Is it any relation at all??

e) there's an Ellen Kyrke, born about 1864 in Liverpool, school teacher, unmarried, who appears in the 1901 census visiting her brother Alfred Chresholm in Great Cosby, and he was born in Scotland.  Apart from not knowing why she and her brother don't have the same surname, does anyone know if she fits into the family?

In the previous posting I have not covered the families of the brothers of Richard Venables Kyrke (Snr) - of which James had a daughter Frances who is said to have died young; and George had a at least three chilrden, including only one son, Rev Richard Kyrke, who married Priscilla Catherine Billinge; other two brothers died without marrying.

[interalia]

Oooo, that's all going to take some thinking time 
But for now....

a) there's a Frederick Kyrke born in Wrexham district in Jun qtr 1841.  Is he another son to Richard and Jane?

I'm fairly sure he must be, but he escapes census. I don't find any of them around in 1851 when maybe the family was in France, and then by 1861 when Frederick would have been about 19/20ish I think he could have gone to Australia, where I've just found this marriage at Ancestry:

Name: Frederick Kyrke
Father's name: Richard Kyrke
Spouse Name: Ellen Sennott
Spouse's Father's Name:   John Sennott
Marriage Date:   9 Feb 1873
Marriage Place: Port Augusta
Registration Place: Frome, South Australia
Page Number: 362
Volume Number: 94

The only thing is he clashes slightly with brother Vernon's estimated birth-year, but there is "room for both" if Vernon was born in 1840, though it means Amelia, Vernon and Frederick were born in pretty quick succession.

If you noticed, there was already an Australian mention in the 1871C for eldest brother William who's enumerated as "Farmer in Austraila" [sic] -- maybe that's where he (William) disappeared back to and why we don't see him later. But he reappears in 1911, boarding at South Croydon aged 78, unmarried, b. Denbighshire, and described as "Old age pensioner".

c) who's the Mary A Kyrke born and died Dec qtr 1866 in Clerkenwell, London?  Is it the first child of James Arnold and Maria??

Hadn't spotted her, but there seems a good chance she was, as in the 1871C they're living in the Clerkenwell civil parish.

e) there's an Ellen Kyrke, born about 1864 in Liverpool, school teacher, unmarried, who appears in the 1901 census visiting her brother Alfred Chresholm in Great Cosby, and he was born in Scotland.  Apart from not knowing why she and her brother don't have the same surname, does anyone know if she fits into the family?

I came across this too and have a theory (sort of!), but need to check my notes to unravel it again - will post again.

[IvanKing]

Hi all

Some issues answered,and further clues available.  The baptism records for Minera have come on line these last few days.   see http://minerahistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=recent.

It helps me a lot, because I had been trying to attach the Ellen Blundell that was visiting James Kyrke in the 1951 census to be a daughter of George, but I couldn't make the right connections.  At least this list shows that George did actually have a daughter Ellen.

Also the list shows that Richard Venables Kyrke (Snr) and Harriet Ann had a couple of daughters in addition to Richard Venables Jnr.

Ivan

[interalia]

e) there's an Ellen Kyrke, born about 1864 in Liverpool, school teacher, unmarried, who appears in the 1901 census visiting her brother Alfred Chresholm in Great Cosby, and he was born in Scotland.  Apart from not knowing why she and her brother don't have the same surname, does anyone know if she fits into the family?

As you say, the household as shown makes little sense: how can an unmarried Alfred Chresholm (b. Scotland) and an unmarried Ellen Kyrke be siblings? One explanation could be they had different mothers, and maybe that's the simple answer here, but it leaves us with an Ellen Kyrke b. ca 1864 who we've yet to place. Or she's been misenumerated as 'sister' instead of perhaps 'visitor', and they're not related at all, but that still leaves us with an EK unaccounted for.

Or does it? There's no way to prove it, but I just have a feeling this may well be Elinor Jane, dau of Richard2 Venables Kyrke and Jane; but in the process of being transcribed by the enumerator into the schedules her details have been mangled.

Her age is wrong, 37 instead of 57, but we often see 5s misread/substituted for 3s (and v/v) when transcribed, and it would have been no different back then. Ellen instead of Elinor: well, shortened or pet names often crop up in census as we know. Birthplace is Liverpool instead of Isle of Man, but again we often see wide variations through census, often clearly in error or in haste -- it happens in transcriptions today and was probably just as likely then too. It certainly stretches imagination that so many errors could attach to one person, but it's far from being the the only instance I've come across where it's happened. On the plus side, she has the right occupation and is in the right place.

In 1891 Elinor is with her sister Mary on Blundellsands Road, Great Crosby. In 1901 Mary is still there, though she's in a part called Blundellsands Road East. "Ellen" and Alfred Chresholm are on Blundellsands Road West, so apparently the same road but a distance apart.

I feel there's a reasonable chance Elinor and Mary were still living together, but either Elinor was visiting Alfred Chresholm on census night, or for some reason there was an even bigger c***-up when filling in the schedules and her details may have been partially combined or swapped with another individual so she's ended up in the wrong household altogether. Who knows -- maybe all the forms got dropped in the middle of the enumerator transcribing them, they weren't put back in the right order, he was up against the clock, had lost his place, and got comletely mixed up? OK, maybe that's pushing imagination much too far! -- but transcribers/enumerators would have been no more perfect or infallible than we are, and "stuff happens".

We should be sceptical, but until we can prove otherwise I feel "Ellen" might be Elinor. It's a pity the two sisters aren't actually seen together in 1911, but I think they probably were still living together. Elinor's on her own at Stroud (private governess retired), and Mary's in the same place (retired governess) but visiting another household: that of Fanny Sheldon, unmarried, age 51 or 57, b. Hoylake.

[interalia]

             1)RICHARD HENRY VENABLES KYRKE (1821-1896), who married twice and seems to have
                   had only one child EVELYN ANNE/ANNIE VENABLES KYRKE (1883-1948), who
                   married John Spottiswoode.

John Spottiswoode (originally John Herbert) evidently had quite a colourful life, according to this thread:
http://www.crossandcockade.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=359&PID=1158
Also in his marriages, as the one to Evelyn was dissolved and he promptly remarried to her cousin Hilda Marjorie, daughter of Arthur Venables Kyrke -- or Hylda as she apparently spelled it by then.

           10)GEORGE ALBERT KYRKE (born about 1850 France and died Jun qtr 1923 in Hackney.
                      He's in the 1871 and later censuses, but can't find him in 1861 when many of the
                      rest of family are back in UK.

He's boarding with his father + brother Edmund in Montgomeryshire in 1861.

[interalia]

Hi all

More on DORA VENABLES KYRKE, daughter of Richard3 Venables Kyrke.

Extracted from Visitations of Ireland, 1973: selected previews available at Google Books:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zpR6uNPmV1EC

Marriage: Joseph Edward Deane-Drake, 29 Jun 1882, at Christ Church, Bwlchgwyn.
Death: 20 Aug 1904, at Stokestown House, co. Wexford.
Buried: 24 Aug 1904 at New Ross, co. Wexford.

Children:
1. Emily Frances Deane-Drake, b. 7 Jun 1883
Married Arthur Isaac Tyndall of Oaklands, co. Wexford, 2 Jun 1909, at St Mary's, New Ross, co. Wexford.

2. Cecil John Venables Deane-Drake, b. 30 Mar 1887
Entered the Army as 2nd Lieutenant Royal Munster Fusiliers 8 Feb 1908, and was promoted Lieutenant 1 Mar 1910.

Lineage of the Deane-Drakes is on pp 112-113 (includes details of the marriage + births of the 2 children) + p158 (Dora's death) + p352 (further details of Emily and Cecil).

NB: these are the online Google page numbers, not those from the publication itself -- search inside the book for Deane-Drake and they'll be highlighted to go straight there.

[Adnepos_Iacobi]

I think Henry KYRKE-SMITH (b 29 Nov 1851 d 21 October 1904) of Liverpool was a descendant of the Gwersyllt Kyrkes but am struggling to find the link.

His father had him christened Henry Kyrke SMITH but Henry changed it to Henry KYRKE-SMITH by deed poll.

Henry's father was Edward SMITH and to my surprise I have been able to trace his father - Charles Roe SMITH (and mother'Sarah'), and paternal grandparents George and Sarah. (As an aside, Henry's brother, Thomas May SMITH christened a son Charles Roe SMITH 1 March 1881)

As discussed previously in this thread, Richard KIRK (abt 1746-1839) of Gwersyllt was a business partner of the industrialsist Charles ROE. Additionally, Richard's son George KYRKE married Charles' grand-daughter Harriott ROE.

So I think Henry KYRKE-SMITH must have got his Kyrke moniker from his father's side, but I have failed to find the link.

Can any of you sleuths work it out?

[wilcoxon]

In the Liverpool Mercury dated 5 Sept 1890, there is mention of a Henry Kyrke Smith.

Probate of the Will of Thomas Danson Edmunston of the firm of Messrs Wright , Crossley & Co spice seed merchants and millers has been granted to Robert Henry Edmondson brother of the deceased, the other executor  Henry Kyrke Smith the surviving partner of the said firm having duly renounced probate and execution of the will.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26010/pages/26/page.pdf

Same man ??