Author Topic: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork  (Read 10046 times)

Offline silverpulser

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Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« on: Wednesday 15 September 10 17:51 BST (UK) »
I have been trying to find evidence of my grandfather's, John (Claude) Hamilton, early years in Cork. The middle name appears on his death certificate in 1962 as this was known to my grandmother. However, I have not seen it used elsewhere.

I have traced his Merchant Seaman's Record (from the PRO/National Archives at Kew) since being demobbed after WW1 and these show his date and place of birth as 29th April 1895, Cork. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a corresponding entry in the index of births for Cork. The closest match was a John Hamilton 1897 in Skibbereen but this one was killed 1917 whilst serving in the Navy in the war and his entry can be seen on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission web site.

I have searched the 1901 and 1911 census records and cannot come up with a good match, which is where I was pinning my hopes after so many years of struggling and getting nowhere.

I have much information regarding his movements since joining the British Army during the 1st World War when he met and married my grandmother, Lilian Victoria Rogers, in Southampton Register Office 15th September 1920. On the marriage certificate he gives his age as 24 and there is a big blank in the space where his father's name should be! He had fallen out with his family and in March 1919 he travelled to Cork to try to make amends with them. Unfortunately this was unsuccessful and he abandoned any further hope of a reconciliation.

Here is a transcript of the letter he wrote to my grandmother from Cork:

Letter from John Hamilton to my Grandmother headed
Cork   25/3/(19)19.

My Own Dearest Babs,

Doubtless you might wonder why I have come on to Cork. I am beginning to wonder myself now dear. I changed my mind at the last moment at Surbiton and thought that if I came on to Cork my people would overlook things. I never made a bigger miscalculation in my life dear. They wouldn’t even speak to me. I tried every possible way Babs but it was worse than useless. I’m sorry now that I troubled about it, I might have known better. When I leave here I shall never come within a long radius of Cork.

You know my father is Scotch (sic) Babs and the decision of a hard-headed Scotsman is hard to alter. I know that I have asked for this and if I hadn’t you (to) think of dear I should just get out of the country altogether. When I left my people I felt very miserable and thought there was only one thing left to do (to get drunk) but I thought of my promise to you Babs and after all it wouldn’t have made things any better. I am leaving here shortly dear and shall call down to Porton to see you before I start my training in London. I’ll send you a wire the day before so that you can arrange to have the day off if possible. We can go to Salisbury for the day. I would have called down to see you before I left Surbiton dear but I came away in the clothes the army issue DV’s and I looked too awful for words. I looked just as though I had fell out of a mincing machine and felt like it too. I am in “digs” here Babs and it isn’t half as bad as I thought it would be. I am fairly comfortable but I am not stopping here long.

I’ll write you again Babs dearest and let you know when I am leaving. For the present “au revoir” with heaps of fondest love

From your own devoted

Jack xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Unfortunately he was not liked by my mother (his daughter) as he got drunk  frequently when ashore from the Merchant Navy and was eventually estranged from my grandmother by a legal separation Order.

Can anyone please help me to find his birth/baptismal record?

Shaun


Offline skibbgirl

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 15 September 10 19:48 BST (UK) »
All right, this is an extreme longshot.

There is a John Hamilton, age 68, naval pensioner, in Union Hall in Skibbereen in the 1911 census along with wife Margaret.  It says married 32 years, 5 children, 4 living.  None of the children are listed.

Could this be the hard-headed Scotsman father.  Do you know if his father was actually born in Scotland (this guy is listed as born in Cork):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Myross/Unionhall_Town_File_1/443746/

Same couple listed in Ballincolla (part of Union Hall) in 1901.  Still no children listed:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Myross/Ballincolla/1157682/

I do *NOT* think this is the family of the other John Hamilton from Skibbereen who died in 1917.  That John Hamilton was from Droum (Drom).  The Southern Star news archives mentions his death in the North Sea, and that he was from Droum. 

I think that family is here in the 1901 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilfaughnabeg/Droum/1157181/

and here in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilfaughnabeg/Drom/443176/

In the census I also see Hamilton men with Claud or Claude in their first names.  There is a navy guy in Queenstown, age 49, born in England.  I wonder if he could be a relative:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Queenstown_No__2_Urban/Casheview_Terrace/405990/

If you haven't already it is probably worth looking closely at men named Claude Hamilton, as your ancestor's name John Claude might give a hint to his line.

Other than that, it sounds to me like your man was born someplace besides County Cork.

PLEASE POST YOUR QUESTIONS TO THE BOARD, NOT THROUGH PM, so that everybody can take a shot at answering your question and benefit from the information.  I cannot respond to requests through private emails.

Barnane, Cahalane, Collins, Connolly, Driscoll, Hourihane, Hurley, Looney, McCarthy, Mahony, Sweeney, Young  in Skibbereen area of southwest County Cork, Ireland; Regan in RoaringWater bay area and in Caheragh parish

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 15 September 10 20:42 BST (UK) »
Shaun,

Skibbgirl has obviously done a thorough job of analyzing the Hamilton possibilities. I looked at all the male Hamilton entries in Co Cork in the censuses to see how many were born in Scotland. In 1901 none were born in Scotland at all. In the 1911 only 1 was born there (Duncan Kennedy Hamilton) but at 29 he can clearly be ruled out as a potential father.

There are some schoolchildren who are boarding and are in both censuses listed only by their initials (in 1901 for example there are 8 listed with just JH). None are of the exact age that fits with the dob. But he could be one of those I suppose. Likewise in the 1911, though again there aren’t any JHs aged 15.

Several things strike me about your problem: a) there’s no trace of a birth for your John H on the dob and place he has given when you might reasonably expect to find one; b) his father’s name is blank on his marriage cert. Why? Would being estranged cause you to say you didn’t know who your father was? I am not sure; c) you can’t find John in either census when you would expect him to be there, especially in the 1901 when he’d only be 5 & d) he doesn’t name any of his relatives in his letter in 1919, which somehow I found slightly odd. No mention of any siblings or other relatives names. Strange in a letter about family. Almost as though he wanted to keep their identity and location a secret.

One option that you might want to consider from this analysis is that John Hamilton wasn’t his real name at all.


Elwyn
Elwyn

Offline silverpulser

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 16 September 10 11:32 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your prompt replies. I am impressed.

I agree that the John Hamilton age 68 Naval Pensioner is a possibility. However, without any children present it is difficult to know how to proceed, especially as he may not have been settled anywhere for long when he was in the Navy.

I also agree that this is not the family of the John Hamilton from Droum who died in 1917. I have that John's birth certificate showing his parents as James Hamilton and Margaret (nee McCarthy). I also have his Naval record showing that he died aboard HMS Pheasant.

The "navy guy in Queenstown age 49 born England" was the subject of some research a little while ago. He was born William Claud Arthur Hamilton 1861 Q2 Stoke Damerel (near Devonport).. On the 1871 census he is in the household of Elizabeth Cumming at Babbacombe, Devon and shown as Nephew. In 1874 he joined the Navy (how young!). 1892 Q3 Gateshead he married Edith Annie Hodgson (b 1868 Newcastle on Tyne). Edith Annie died 1899 at Weymouth age 30. I do not know whether they had any children as i have not found him on the 1901 census yet. 1903 Q4 St Faiths he married Isabel Hartcup, a solicitor's daughter. I haven't found any children for this marriage yet.

I do not know whether my John Hamilton's father came from Scotland or was the child of Scottish parents. My grandmother told me many tears ago that he was a harbour Master at Dundee but research failed to confirm this. Here is a reply that I received regarding this:

Regarding heresay that John Hamilton’s father was a Harbourmaster at Dundee:-

.. Dear Mrs Montgomery,

I  apologise for the delay in responding to your enquiry concerning your husband's great-grandfather.  Dundee trade directories provide the names of the harbourmaster and  the other principal Harbour officials.  I have looked at the pre-1895 directories but have been unable to find any Hamiltons listed. I assume from the information you give that he must have been comparatively young when he left Scotland which would, on the face of it, make it rather unlikely that he would have reached one of the top posts.  He may well have worked at the docks but perhaps in a lesser capacity.  There were also a number of other smaller ports and harbours near to Dundee…

.. Dear Mrs Montgomery,
 
I have checked the directories back to 1861 and could not find any Hamilton associated with the Harbour.  There appear to have been only 3 Harbourmasters in the period - Charles Yule, William Robertson and John Jack…

My grandmother also said that John Hamilton had sisters, Eileen and Kathleen who she briefly met in England. I have not been able to confirm this either.

Elwyn, regarding the possibility that his name was not John Hamilton is a scenario that I have considered, along with the possibility that he may have been illegitimate or adopted, though if he was, my grandmother nor my mother were aware of this. My mother does remember him saying (tantalisingly) " what would you think if your name wasn't Hamilton but (and I cannot remember exactly what she said) O'Hara " or something like that. My mother replied to him saying " I would like it better if it had been Rogers " (her mother's maiden surname).

I have many letters sent from him to my grandmother whilst they were courting and he was in the army and not one of them mentions any member of his family. Mostly they just relate what he and his pals were doing in their spare time (page after page of rambling about nothing in particular!).

The last avenue of research that occurred to me was what evidence of date of birth did he provide when he reached pension age. I remember my gran had to send off her birth certificate!

Shaun


Offline dproberts

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #4 on: Monday 27 June 11 23:53 BST (UK) »
Hi,  Im also researching Hamiltons in Cork but from an earlier period.  The name and that he states his father as a scot may suggest a service type career like the RIC or coastguard or the lighthouses.  Given that he became a sailor might imply one of the latter.  These families moved around a lot in ireland but also between Ireland and the UK. Some of the station registers are now availlable on line from kew.  Hope this may be of some help to you

Offline silverpulser

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 14:59 BST (UK) »
Hi,  Im also researching Hamiltons in Cork but from an earlier period.  The name and that he states his father as a scot may suggest a service type career like the RIC or coastguard or the lighthouses.  Given that he became a sailor might imply one of the latter.  These families moved around a lot in ireland but also between Ireland and the UK. Some of the station registers are now availlable on line from kew.  Hope this may be of some help to you

Thanks for that. The problem lies with the fact that I do not know John Hamilton's father's name.

If I search the 1901 census for Hamiltons born Scotland and living anywhere then 108 results are returned. If I restrict the search to Cork them there are no results returned!

If I do the same search on the 1911 census then there is one result returned for Cork for a man aged 29 years old which is way too young as John Hamilton was born 1895 so his father would need to be in excess of 36 years of age. His wife is even younger at age 26. In the 1911 census there are 37 results returned.

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 20:19 BST (UK) »
just wonder if they were distantly connected to any of this family?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Claud_Hamilton_(disambiguation)
PM

Offline silverpulser

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 20:38 BST (UK) »
just wonder if they were distantly connected to any of this family?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Claud_Hamilton_(disambiguation)
PM

Well, that would be a nice surprise. My John Hamilton spent most of his life at sea in the Merchant Navy. My mother despised him for the times he turned up the worse for drink, having spent any money he may have earned on the booze. Of course he was probably disowned by his family  at a young age for precisely those attributes, having squandered a good private education, joining the British Army and marrying an English non-Catholic.

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Birth/Baptism - John Hamilton - Cork
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 21:48 BST (UK) »
Had a look at Ancestry family trees, and there are three claiming your grandparents:

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/22632927/person/1273488578?ssrc=

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/10467345/person/-636246986?ssrc=

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/13803044/person/-7007189?ssrc=

 Giving Birth 21 JUL 1897 in Droum, Union Hall, Cork, Co. Cork, Ireland.

These people could all be victims of little green leaf syndrome, but in case they are recent and cousins you don't know about, as they are Public trees, I thought it worth mentioning.

I wonder if you have considered sending a copy of that interesting letter to a newspaper in Cork? Someone in his family might still know about that visit in 1919.

www.corkman.ie
www.irishexaminer.com
www.eecho.ie

Another thing to consider is that unfortunately, by 1919 many young Irishmen who had fought in WW1 were not welcome as feelings of anti-british sentiment were running high at the time.

PM