Alien Records for Liverpool during WW1

[HarrysGirl2]

Thanks Elwyn, Thanks Andy,

Apparently,  the earlier Jewish immigrants found it hard to get work in the UK, USA & SA, so they Anglicised their names & Jews from anywhere in Europe 'said' they were from Germany, because German Jews were better cultured, educated & so, got a better job etc... but, as things turned sour with Germany, they quickly changed their place of origin to Russian/Polish etc...  But, once identity cards & the alien registration began in 1916, as you say, it would have been difficult for Jews to lie about where they came from.  His alien registration information from the Dublin police book, gives his identity number & his place of origin as Russia, not Germany.  So, maybe he 'said' he was from Germany to be better thought of, as he was always self-employed & he worked hard & prospered.  Or, as has been said, perhaps his homeland changed hands after he left.

I have a friend who works at the NA & she has searched for Naturalisation records, but found none.  So, I don't think the Louis Freedman from London would be him Andy, it is a very common Jewish name.  He moved to Liverpool from Leeds in 1893 & apart from this appearance in Dublin, he remained in Liverpool until he died in 1949.

HR2

[Elwyn Soutter]

HG2

The question of one’s nationality is quite complex. It’s not just about which country has jurisdiction at any given time. There are often legal and sensitive overlaps. There are people in Northern Ireland, where I live, who were born here and perceive themselves as Irish, and people living next door, also born here, who perceive themselves as British. Largely it depends on your background. Both are correct. The laws of Ireland and the UK allow them both citizenships, should they wish.

In the same way, I can see that someone who was born in what was Germany in 1867, might continue to consider themselves as German, long after that area had passed into another country’s jurisdiction.  I am not an expert on German nationality law but I suspect that Tobias continued to be entitled to a German passport on the grounds of birth in Germany, long after that bit of Germany had passed into a different jurisdiction. (The UK allowed similar claims to persons born in what is now the Republic of Ireland long after it became an independent nation, indeed until it left the British Commonwealth in 1949).

If you also consider the fact that Tobias, had probably not been “home” to Kovno for 30 years or more by the 1st World War, I think he was unlikely overnight to consider himself Russian, a nation with which he personally had not had contact at all. I expect his principal language (apart from English) was German, was it not? His cultural background would have been Jewish-German, not Russian or Lithuanian. He was not very likely to see himself as Russian, in my opinion. He had not naturalised as British, despite living in the UK for at least a quarter of a century (we know that because he wouldn’t be carrying an Aliens Registration Certificate if he had), so I think it’s pretty likely he would continue to perceive himself as German, despite the vagaries of international politics, all through his life. That’s how I see it.

Elwyn

[HarrysGirl2]

HG2

The question of one’s nationality is quite complex. It’s not just about which country has jurisdiction at any given time. There are often legal and sensitive overlaps. There are people in Northern Ireland, where I live, who were born here and perceive themselves as Irish, and people living next door, also born here, who perceive themselves as British. Largely it depends on your background. Both are correct. The laws of Ireland and the UK allow them both citizenships, should they wish.

In the same way, I can see that someone who was born in what was Germany in 1867, might continue to consider themselves as German, long after that area had passed into another country’s jurisdiction.  I am not an expert on German nationality law but I suspect that Tobias continued to be entitled to a German passport on the grounds of birth in Germany, long after that bit of Germany had passed into a different jurisdiction. (The UK allowed similar claims to persons born in what is now the Republic of Ireland long after it became an independent nation, indeed until it left the British Commonwealth in 1949).

If you also consider the fact that Tobias, had probably not been “home” to Kovno for 30 years or more by the 1st World War, I think he was unlikely overnight to consider himself Russian, a nation with which he personally had not had contact at all. I expect his principal language (apart from English) was German, was it not? His cultural background would have been Jewish-German, not Russian or Lithuanian. He was not very likely to see himself as Russian, in my opinion. He had not naturalised as British, despite living in the UK for at least a quarter of a century (we know that because he wouldn’t be carrying an Aliens Registration Certificate if he had), so I think it’s pretty likely he would continue to perceive himself as German, despite the vagaries of international politics, all through his life. That’s how I see it.

Elwyn

I think what you've said Elwyn, in your 1st & 2nd paragraphs is a good point of view & the Irish-British example is a good example. 

I never met my grandfather as he died in 1949 & I was born in 1953.  My father was the next to youngest of his many children born in 1907, & then my father was nearly 48, when he had me & my mum nearly 41. 

My story is complicated as I never met my father & was only told about my Jewish roots after my mum died in 1989, when I found a letter that gave me a clue as to who he was.  My parents never married, each other, or anyone else & I now know that they kept in touch with each other throughout there lives until his death in 1984 & I also now know that my father kept an eye on me from a distance.

It was only last year, when I found the descendants of his siblings & my lovely three 1st cousins, who are scattered from Liverpool, Wales & Brisbane have told me so much about him & have given me a photo of him.  I've had so much help in this search & in the process of finding my father's family, I've reunited them, as they had all lost touch with each other.  My three 1st cousins who are 80, 81 & 88 years old, had not seen each other for 75 years! 

But, I am relying on their failing memories to tell me about the families roots & it appears that my grandfather Louis, had been a mystery to his family & they thought he had no family here other than the family he created. They cannot remember if he had an accent, but they think it would be Yiddish he would have spoken, which is a form of German dialect- adapted.

The beauty of these website forums is you get a fresh pair of eyes looking at something & I can see what you mean from your Irish-British example...

Thank you 

HG2

[steve62]

Hi everyone,
I'm in the same position for Liverpool Alien Records WWI.  From the Manchester Registration 1941 have the Registration Number for Liverpool in 1917.  Need to find this to see where my ancestor was before.  Found her in the 1911 and know where she was after 1941.  Stuck on the 1917 Liverpool Registration.
LRO said no and try Merseyside Police and they said no try LRO or N.A.  N.A. have only London Met.
Back to square one. Apart from the fact cannot find in the Incoming Passenger Lists either!
Any suggestions gratefully received.

Steve

[GrahamSimons]

One thought - this society may well have the expertise you need: http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/

[steve62]

Thank you for your kind interest.
They have the Manchester & Salford ones only.  Have just heard from someone that the records were usually destroyed after ten years - no help to us researchers.  In the case of the M & S Records, seems  when they closed the Salford Police Station they found some Alien Registers thathad not been destroyed and handed them to the Manchester Police Museum. 
Looks like I'm going to be struggling on this one as L.R.O. has no idea if they still exist and if so the whereabouts.

Thanks again.

Steve