Solve a family mystery??

[CatOne]

Extract from a letter sent from my great great aunt, Norah, to my dad about 10 years ago (shes since died) -

".....my grandma Osborn she was a Dunning, her mother my great grandma married a Sir Ashley and became Lady Ashley. her daughter my grandma married beneath her a workman on the Ashley estate and was disowned for many years but was forgiven in later years, I can remember from being 5 years old staying with my grandma, her people the Ashleys used to send an open landau with 2 horses to take her to her home for 1 month each year.....they had potteries in Staffordshire"

Unfortunately the family papers were in the hands of Alma, Norah and my g grandads younger sister, and her husband would not allow access to anyone. Alma and her husband have since died and the papers lost!!

I cannot find anything to back up Aunt Norah's story, thats where I would like you experts help. here are the facts I have found -

Norahs mum was Hannah Hall, born 1872 Birmingham, nee Osborn, daughter of Eliza Dunning and Henry John Osborn.

Henry John Osborn was born 1846 Birmingham, son of Henry Astley Osborn (b.1819 Birmingham Parents John Osborn, "Collector" according to another sons marriage certificate, and Sarah Astley) and Hannah Smith (b. 1820 Smalley, Derbyshire Parents could be John Smith and Elizabeth Walker m. 1815 Alkmund, Derby)

However, the side of the family Norah refers to would be the family of Eliza Dunning, although on her birth certificate she is registered as Eliza Downing b. 13/10/1850. And I know that at least one other sibling is also registered in the name Downing, although on censuses and other docs, ie; certificates, their names are Dunning?! Why the name change??

I have tracked the family through the censuses (1851,71,81,91 etc) and Elizas parents seem to be a John Dunning, b. 1814 Chesterton Staffs (Painter gilder on early censuses, Flower Painter Potter on 1881 census)and Hannah Vickers b. 1814 Acton Cheshire - m. Newcastle, Staffs 1839 (Witnesses have the same surname as the Vicar so could be his relatives rather than their family, indicating family disapproval?? On the marriage cert their fathers are William Dunning, Miner/Joiner? and Richard Vickers, Labourer.

I cannot however find anything that would remotely back up my aunts stories of her childhood.

Any suggestions??? it would be nice to have at least one branch of the family that wasnt struggling to get by, even if her stories were the fanciful imaginations and exagerations of a child!! 

Thanks,
Catherine 

[Paul E]

Hi Catherine

An interesting web to untangle!

How old was your gg aunt when she wrote the the letter to your Dad?

Could part of the clue come from the Astley name rather than the Ashley one?  Is it possible that she has mixed up a couple of family lines?

A simple interpreation of her account would be that Sir Ashley Dunning married Mrs X and had daughter Elizabeth Dunning.

I can't find an Ashley Downing / Dunning anywhere, so what about the Astley connection?

cheers

Paul

[CatOne]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for replying, Think I need a fresh pair of eyes to help me with this one!!

My dad says she was in her nineties when he used to write to her and speak on the phone to her. He said she was "all there" and that my grandma (his mum) also knew of this family story. It isnt just something that my aunt brought up at that time, it was something that was known about in the family for years.

Stan (my aunts brother in law) who wouldnt let anyone see the family papers, did write the birth details of Eliza Dunning/Downing, and said that it was the Dunning name that had connections with this Ashley/Astley?

The Astley Osborns do appear to be reasonably well off, having connections with Birmingham and Middlesex. Henry Astley Osborn lived in Birmingham (Tin Industry) but died in Middlesex in 1877 (On his death certificate it says occupation "Tinman", not retired....) They lived first at Lamb Conduit Street, and then Bedford Court. His brother, William Astley Osborn, was in the printing industry and my aunt also said that the "family" had a factory in Kilburn, London, which was now in the hands of the grandchildren, so I dont know whether it was a printing factory or on the Dunning side, a pottery factory???

I have been trying to find William and Henrys parents John and Sarah Osborn on the 1851 census (Aston) to find out in more detail what his "job" was, other than "Collector". I know he was alive when William got married in 1846, but I havent been able to find him in Birmingham. Maybe if there was a Middlesex connection, they may be there?

Another mystery is why the Dunning family is Dunning on the censuses, but on their birth certificates, the earlier children were registered as Dunning, while the later children were registered as Downing. My ggg grandma is Downing on her birth certificate but Dunning on her marriage cert. If this Sir Ashley was on the Dunning side I havent been able to find him!! I've found a marriage for a Hannah Vickers and John Dunning but his father was William Dunning, Miner and hers Richard Vickers, Labourer!! (maybe the connection was "illegitimate" so I may never find the connection.....

Thanks again for replying, any ideas/suggestions are welcome!!
Catherine 

[Willow 4873]

Hiya Cat

What an interesting story!

I am guessing from what you have said that Hannah's marriage to Sir Ashley was a second marriage. When did her first husband die? This will at least give you a kick off point to when they married (dont forget that she was probably listed as Hannah Dunning on that marriage certificate not Vickers)

Also have you had a look to see if you can trace a will for Sir Astley it might give you more clues. I'm guessing it was the early 1900's that Norah remembered going to the estate so you might find relatives on the Astley side listed in the 1901 census

I also found this on a search - I don't know if its of any help

http://kinnexions.com/smlawson/ashley.htm

Good luck

Willow x

[CatOne]

I was thinking that maybe it was a second marriage, but Hannah's husband John died in 1883 aged 69 and a Hannah Dunning died in March 1897, Wolstanton, Staffs. (I have to get the certificates to prove its the same couple but I'm 99% sure). This would rule out a second marriage for Hannah.

The only way it can be this couple my aunt was referring to is if the marriage certificate (1839 Newcastle, Staffs) I found for Hannah Vickers and John Dunning is not the correct one..... which I doubt...the only thing that gives me small doubts is that his occupation on the marriage cert is Painter, whereas on the 1851 census and his earlier childrens birth certs his occ. is Glass Gilder. He doesnt appear as painter/flowerpainter potter until the 1871 census.... How likely is it that another John Dunning married another Hannah Vickers though??!!

Could Eliza Dunning marrying Henry John Osborn, son of the Astley Osborns, be the "Dunning connection" with the Ashley/Astleys though??

I somehow feel this is a mystery I will never solve unless I come across some of my Osborn/Dunning cousins tracing their own family history. 

Catherine

[Paul E]

I somehow feel this is a mystery I will never solve unless I come across some of my Osborn/Dunning cousins tracing their own family history. 

Catherine

And I take it that the Catherine on Genes Reunited is your good self?

[CatOne]

Yes, but had nearly forgotton about that site. Spend all my time on here and ancestry now!!  although have registered with lostcousins...hoping.... 

[Michelle72]

We've had a similar problem with our Downing line in Bedfordshire.  On one of the census returns the whole family are listed as Dunning.  We have put it down to the broad accent they must have had!

[CatOne]

Hi,

Thanks for taking an interest. It certainly makes if difficult tracing them having different names on the censuses an certificates! And am still no nearer solving the mystery! Still looking 

Catherine