Possibly Evangelist Gipsy Simon Smith?

[Britgal]

Sorry, but this photo - in the possession of an 81 year old lady with the same Romany background as myself - was already pasted - we assume by the lady's mother as it was passed down in her belongings - along with another photograph, to a bit of plain stiff card.  The lady doesn't know the people featured, but I strongly suspect the fair-haired man to be the evangelist 'Gipsy' Simon Smith (a nephew of the more famous 'Gipsy' Rodney Smith), who was born in 1875.  I have older photos of Simon, who was my GG grandmother's Naomi Smith's younger brother (I have no photos of Naomi, so if she's the older lady pictured, I can't tell).  The 81 year old lady (a granddaughter of Naomi Smith) is keen for me to find out what I can about the photo, so I have her permission to post this.

[Britgal]

I forgot to add that I was after a possible date for the photo.

[squiggle]

Hi Britgal,

What a wonderful photo!

Do you have any other siblings for Simon and Naomi and their dates of birth.

BTW. Looked at your other photo and agree with the comment on the other thread that the lady picked out is the same lady in both photos.

Looking forward to seeing a date for this one,...... my guess early 1920's.

Becky

[jim1]

Around 1912 give or take a couple of years.The high waisted skirt noticeable on the young woman seated was popular at this time & was styled to give the blouse a barrel shaped look.The large bows of the other 2 were also popular pre WW1 for older girls but went out of fashion by the war.The older woman is in a style from the earlier 1900's which wouldn't be unusual but even women of a certain age abandoned this look by the mid teens.
The man is the most up to date in this modern frock coat & narrow cut trousers with the large turnups accompanied by the 2 1/2" starched collar he would have looked very dapper at this time.

jim

[seanelly]

This is a lovely picture. More than slightly off subject but my Great Grandfather James Billingsley was Gypsy Rodney Smith's Lieutenant in Hanley Staffordshire. Gypsy Smith was also best man at his wedding in 1886. Small world. Fiona.

[Britgal]

Thanks so much for the comments so far.
I've attached the youngest photo I currently have that I know to be Simon Smith - I don't know the date, however; it's a scan (tidied up) from a commercially-available postcard I bought on eBay.  Any ideas of a date?  I know there's not much to go on!  Do other people think I've got the young man in the main photo right by thinking he's the same guy only a bit younger? 
I have another photo (also from a postcard) of Simon with his mother Susan Lee, but she's definitely not the older woman in the main photo of this post, nor any of the women in the other ladies-only photo I posted on the same day.
Squiggle, you asked for dates of other of Simon and Naomi's sibs ... the only female one who survived until 1912-ish was Elizabeth (b. 1867).  Naomi's surviving female children who might be of an age to appear in this photo, however, were Ocean (b. 1887), my own g-grandmother Susan (b. 1891), Alvina (1893) and Dora (1895).  I do have post-1912 images of all of these ladies, but can't seem to see any close resemblances to the young women in this photo (will make a montage a bit later, so maybe others might see something I'm not seeing!).  Another vague possibility for one of the young women could be Simon and Naomi's deceased sibling Delilah's daughter Elizabeth Faulkner (b. 1884), in whose house Naomi was living at the time of the 1911 census*. No photo of Elizabeth Faulkner, sadly, though, and she's possibly too old by 1912 to look the same age as one of the younger women in the photo.
If the fair-haired man IS Simon Smith ... and the date IS 1912-ish ... the young boy in the photo is of the right age to be Simon's eldest child and only son at this time, William (b. 1899).  Simon was known to be still living in England until December 1912 - when he moved his family to Canada.
*Despite being Romany stock, due to Simon and Naomi's father Bartholomew's Christian conversion, the Smith branch of the family ceased to be nomadic around the time of the tragic death of Simon and Naomi's sister Mary in 1880 (then Barthy himself died in 1884).  The Taylor branch of Roms that Naomi married into 'settled' permanently in Canning Town due to Naomi's husband's failing health and eventual death in 1904.

[jim1]

This one's around the same time as the other one.This style with the high lapeless waistcoat & round starched collar prevailed over quite a long time so could be into the war years.
Realistically anywhere from 1905-20 but I suspect pre WW1.

jim
jim

[chinakay]

Agree with Jim on the date for the first photo, but would push it out to the later end of his date window...around 1914 or so. The V-necked blouse came out in about 1913-1914, and I have a photo of a very similar outfit on a young lady dated 1914 by the sitter on the back.

Cheers,
China

[maxtyler]

Greetings from Canada !!!

My Great Grandfather was Gipsy Simon Smith .. My mother Dianne's ,Grandfather .. My Grandmother Madge's ,Father ..  He was married to Blanche Louise Mackenzie they had 9 children that lived..  sadly twins ,one boy and one girl died of pneumonia at the approximate age of 2 yrs.. on the farm in Ontario, I do not know the DOB or the DOD or their names .. I will look further into that .
These are the 9
William * He died in his 60's of cancer
Ada    *
May   *
Violet  *
Lily     *
Ruby  * she was youngest of siblings to die .. and it was from cancer
Ivy     * she was the last living sibling ,she lived into her nineties she passed 5 yrs ago.. I attended her 90th Party with all the family it was an Elvis themed event, based on her favorite movie BLUE HAWAII .
Madge ( Marguerite) *
Donald (Hague) Smith * 
His mother Susan Smith passed away in 1926 at the age of 86

I have a copy of his book The Adventures of a Gipsy Boy and other stories.. it is filled with his life story,poetry and lots of family history . I also have an original book of hymns and some original sheet music that he wrote..
Bartholomew father of Gypsy Simon and Cornelius, father  to Gypsy Rodney Smith .
Bartholomew died when Simon was 11 ,he had a strained heart .Life was very tough for them. Simon heard there was was a man who would help poor boys and girls the place was in Stepney Causeway called Dr. Barnardo's Home . Simon pleaded his case that he was a gipsy boy ,his father was dead ,that he wanted to go to Canada to work on a farm so he could send his wages home to his mother .. and it happened . Across the Atlantic he went .. it was hard grueling work at the hands of an abusive man .. After 2 yrs in Canada he returned to England ... and was employed by a horse dealer he ended up traveling to the USA ,Holland,Mexican Boarder,Guatemala,Honduras,he went all over the world , he crossed the ocean 43 times , He never slept in a house til he was 12 yrs old.. He became a missionary in the slums of London ,and then an Evangelist ..He had most of his children in England before coming to Toronto that is where my Grandmother was born..they first landed in Nova Scotia , they ended up settling in London ,Ontario ,Canada  because it reminded him of England with the Thames River, that is where they lived out the rest of their lives .. That is where they are buried ..at Woodland Cemetery
Look forward to hearing from you..
Heather

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