An Essex Robert Green

[jk22]

Hello.
I have been here before re this line and have come back after my English 3rd cousin [Peter] and i (Australian) have been doing our best to unravel the elementaries!  So for a possible last time may i ask if there can be further clarity found?
What we have as  certainty:
My great grandmother:  Jane Rebekah Green b1855 Weeley, Essex.
Peter's grandmother:  Sarah Ann Amelia Moore b1875 Plumstead Kent.  She is the eldest daughter and 2nd child of Jane's older sister, Sarah Ann Green Moore, b1849, Weeley, Essex.
Sarah and Jane's parents were:  Robert Green and Sarah Watkins who married on 19 Feb 1844 at St Bride's in London.  I have a cc of church reg.  We take them as our ancestors given that their names are on the childrens' birth regs which we also have.
What we are less certain about:Who was Robert married to prior to his mg to Sarah;  cert says he was a widower?  We have the maiden and married name of Robert jr's first wife as Elizabeth either Knopp or Knapp? She died on 22 Dec 1839 which sits well with his subsequent mg to Sarah Watkins in 1844. When did Jemima, Robert jr's mother, die?  Was it in 1805 or 1834? Was his father Robert Wilkinson Green [b1 Mar 1771] and his mother Jemima Everitt (widow name, but husband cannot be found.  Maiden name we have taken as Ladbroke)? We haven't found a death or first name for Mr Everitt.  It is problematic as Robert snr later married an Elizabeth Langlands in 1819 and if this is our line then Jemima would have to have died in 1805 - yes?  I'm suspecting that Robert Wilkinson Green married 'up' to Jemima who came from a locally notable family line.
Any help again would be marvelous.
Julie

[AMBLY]

Hi Julie

You raise a number of enquiry lines - but concentrating initially  on the father of your gt-grandmother Jane  in his  married man/father years:

1841: Weeley Heath, Weeley (St Osyth, Tendring Hundred) Essex
HO107 -  Piece 338; Book: 29 /  Folio: 4 / Pg3
Robert GREEN 45, Ag Lab - Y
Elizabeth GREEN 50 - Y
John DEEVES 15 - Y

Robert's birth indicated abt 1791-1795
Elizabeth's birth indicated abt 1786-1791

1851: Weeley Heath, Weeley, ( (St Osyth, Tendring) ESSEX
 HO107 / Piece: 1779 / Folio: 141 / Pg7
Head: Robert GREEN  50, Ag Lab, b Ardleigh, Essex
Wife: Sarah 38, b Bracknoick, Radnorshire
Son: John 6, b Weeley
Son: Octavis 4, b Weeley
Dau: Sarah A 18mths, b Weeley
Lodger: William SYROTT  75, wid, Pauper. Ag Lab, b St Bentley Essex

Robert's birth indicated as 1801. When he died (between 1851 & 1861) what age was recorded?

I see from older topics, that the 1841 Census above has been presented to you before as a possibility - there are many of the same families/people  surrounding both Robert GREENs  on the 1841 and 1851, to indicate this is the same man in the same place in the two Census. . If the Elizabeth in 1841 is his wife - there are no relationship indicators in the 1841, she could be a sister for eg!  - then she  was alive in 1841 and therefore cannot be the death in 1839.  An Elizabeth GREEN death is registered Dec Qtr 1841 in Tendring  - has this death been looked at?

What, on the other hand makes you believe (documentation etc?) your Robert GREEN was first married to an Elizabeth KNAPP/KNOPP and that she died in 1839?

1861:  Clacton Road Cottages, Weeley (St Osyth, Tendring) ESSEX
RG9 / Piece: 1092 / Folio: 178/ Pg4
Head: Sarah GREEN  41, widow, Laundress & Lodging House. b Wales
Son: John 15, Ag Lab, b Weeley
Son: Octavious 13, Ag Lab, b Weeley
Dau: Ann 11, b Weeley
Dau: Jane 5, b Weeley
Lodger: David ADAMS 25, unm, Woodman, b Weeley
Lodger: William SCOTT 85, wid, Parish Allowance, b Thorp Le Soken, Essex

When Robert GREEN and Sarah WATKINS married in St Brides's:
What was the full transcript of what is says for  Roberts's father?

Cheers
AMBLY

[keyboard86]

Hi AMBLY, Julie is currently off-line, but I have scanned the original, and for the father Robert it just gives his occupation as Miller, the witnesses if of any assistance were Alexander and Catherine McAdam (or similar)!

Also no mention of whether deceased.

Keyboard86

[jk22]

Hello AMBLY & KEYBOARD66
Thank very much for your efforts.  But i think i need more!
What it looks like is Robert Green snr md a young widow, Jemima Everitt nee Ladbroke in 1793. Their eldest child was Sarah Harriet Green.  Her ggggrandson provided the other children also with the youngest being Robert jr b 1800 and dying in 1858.  His father Robert snr died in 1827.  But how can this be so, if the dc says Robert jnr's corrected age is 70.  As he died in the Union Tendring in 1858 if it is my ancestor, would Sarah and the 4 children have gone in with him?  They were on their own in 1861 as the census shows.
There have been too many Roberts and Elizabeths and remarriages in this tree!
So, Robert Wilkinson Green (father John; mother Elizabeth Wilkinson) was born in 1771 in Gt Horkesly.
He md Jemima Everitt nee Ladbroke (no details found on her first hb) in 1793 21 Mar.  then had 6 children.
Then Jemima died in 1805 (if it is our lady) making way for RWG to marry in 1819 14 Feb, an Elizabeth Langlands, herself a widow, in Weeley.
I am given that RWG died in 1827 aged 56 - i don't have more detail at this point.
I  have assumed that the dc for Elizabeth Green is for Eliz Langlands Green as she was 61 when she died in 1841.  This then makes her birth year as 1780 which sits agreeably with RWG in that he was b in 1771.  As for Robert jr's first marriage i think it might have been an Elizabeth Knopp.  But when did she die in order to allow Robert jr to marry my ancester, Sarah in London in 1844?  Had Robert jr actually married Elizabeth Langlands a widow and older lady - he being only 19 in 1819 and she 39!
Sorry this is dense, but can you help further please?!
Kind regards
Julie

[jk22]

Hello AMBLY & KEYBOARD 66.
i just remembered that i found an entry on ancestry that gives an Elizabeth Green as md to a Robert Deeves on 8 Dec 1793 in Ardleigh, Essex, England.
The 1841 c to which you referred to earlier showing EG and RG and a boy of 15, John Deeves.  I think it must be impossible to work out who is who and their ages and relationships.  Is Eliz a sister to Robert Green as you speculate, and Robert Deeves, Elizabeth's grandson?   Or is she Robert Green's wife, with John Deeves someone's grandson or nephew?  Phew.

Re the mg of Robert Green, widower to Sarah Watkins in St Bride's , London:  the cc of entry tells that Robert Green sr was a "Miller" and William Watkins a "Farmer".  No mention of either being deceased.  It says that Robert Jr, widower, is a "Farmer".

Any thoughts?
Kind regards
Julie

[jk22]

Yet another note:

Robert Green md Elizabeth Knapp 7 Jul 1835 at Great Horkesly.
An
Alan on Rootschat  in Aug 09 said that in 1841 people rounded their ages to the nearest 5 so maybe my Robert Green jr was born/baptised c1795.
No maiden name is given on the dc for the Elizabeth Green who died in 1841 but she was the only one in the Tendring district.
Shane Hines 28 July 09 wrote that he "think[s that Robert Green/Jemima Everett(maiden name Jemima Ladbroke) had a son Robert baptised 28 Dec 1800 at Gt Horkesley".

I'm so confused i need a clarifier!
Regards
julie

[jk22]

A very late hello and thanks to 'AMBLY' and 'keyboard86'.

15 Jul 2017

This entry is to state where professional research and our own has settled us - reasonably certainly!

It looks as if Robert Green, father of my great grandmother, Jane Rebekah Green (1855-1903) was born illegitimately to a Robert Deeves and Elizabeth Green in lateish 1793 in Ardleigh, Essex.

Robert Deeves (sr) was a Miller in the Ardleigh area.
He had married twice before he married Elizabeth Green in late 1793, not long after the birth of their son, my great great grandfather, Robert.

Robert (sr) had been married twice before but those two young women died very early in the twenties and bore him no living children.

Robert (sr) had six childen legitimately with Elizabeth Green, now Deeves.

Their first child, my gggf, Robert (jr) was baptised in 1795 along with his younger brother, John born that year.  Robert (jr) was baptised as a 'Deeves'.

It seems that Robert Deeves (jr) later recused to his mother's maiden name.  For what reason we do not know but i suspect it was because he had some antipathy towards his biological father for not having married his mother earlier?!

Elizabeth predeceased Robert (sr) and he married for the 4th time to an Elizabeth Barrett whom i gather also gave him children - a Sarah and a Lucy i think.

Robert Deeves/Green, my gggfather, died it seems in 1858 in the Tendring Union Workhouse - he was ill with spinal problems if i recall rightly.  Although we cannot be too sure this man is 'ours' he does fit well with our known and certain facts - his youngest child, Jane, was born 11 Oct 1855 and on the 1861 (7 Apr) census, his 2nd wife, my gggmother, Sarah, was a widow. 

My English 3rd cousin and i have not proceeded with any DNA work as it seems just too difficult to find/locate any likely Deeves descendants at this time.

I just wanted to acknowledge and thank you both for your earlier 'interest' in my searches.

Kind regards,
Julie