Wheatlands, Sussex and a mystery

[f4monty]

My mum and I have come to a grinding halt with our research into our Wheatland ancestors and would really appreciate some hints and tips on where to go next.

We have no problems with William Albert Wheatland, who was born in 1878 in Croydon. His parents were John Wheatland and Mary, nee Coughlan - and it's this John who becomes something of a mystery. There is no record of him in the 1861 census but there are in subsequent ones, some of which have him born in Rusper, Sussex (except 1891 which says Croydon and 1911 which says Brighton!). His birth year in the censuses is abt 1856. However, having examined the parish registers there is no record of a John Wheatland born in Rusper or anywhere near around 1856.

More strangely, on his marriage certificate his father is listed as William Wheatland. Yet the 1871 census says his father is John Wheatland of Shipley in Sussex. However, no John Wheatland exists from Shipley of that time either!

There is a William Wheatland from Shipley, born in 1838. He married an Olive Biggs, who was born about 20 years earlier than him and had had a family with Mr Biggs including a John born in about 1859, according to the 1861 census. We are wondering whether this John eventually adopted his stepfather's name and is our man? There are discrepancies obviously including birth year but from long studies of the records we can draw no other conclusion!

Any help would be appreciated.

[Sandymc47]

Hi there

Welcome to Rootschat.

I have had a look for you and Yes it is a little complicated.

I think we may have the census records for Rusper missing in
1861.  I say this because I have searched through all of the
family of Biggs and non of them are there except for Clara Biggs
who was born Rusper in 1847 and is 15 working away from Rusper
as a servant. So as there were at least 6 children at that time and
a Mum and Dad I think that would indicate a missing piece of the
census. Hence no John either.
I did find the birth of Olive who was born at Newdigate in 1817
She married Thomas Biggs b Rusper in 1816.  They had 6 children
5 of them girls.  This is where I think it becomes slightly mysterious.
I think she would be too old to have had the younger children with
John Wheatland.  She would have been about 41.
Just wondered if it could have beenone of her older daughters?
The girls were Lydia 1839,
Jane 1840, Mary Ann 1843, Clara 1847, Julia 1849.  Lydia, Jane and
Mary Ann were born at Newdigate and so it must be one of these
ladies as on one of the census it does say Olive was born Newdigate.
I cant seem to imagine John or William marrying at 20 a woman
with 3 daughters old enough to marry them.?

There is a William Wheatley not Wheatland who marries a Olive Biggs
in 1858. Then when you see the 1871 census there is a John Wheatland
married to Olive and he is 34 and she is 39 not the 20 years older as
she is on one of the census.  I am wondering if the 42 years should have
been 24 and that would make her Julias sister not her Mother?

On the 1871 it does state the John was 12 by then born about 1859ish
He is born in Shipley which is in the civil parish of Rusper.  Then it states
that Rusper is in the civil parish of Croydon.  So these areas are related
The John stating Brighton wrote that down himself as the 1911 was hand written by the head of the household, so maybe he was confused by then?

One of my ggGrandads was called John William so maybe its a two named
person that is making us confused?

Hope you can find them

regards Sandymc

[AMBLY]

Hi Sandymc

The Rusper census for 1861 isn't missing. It is  Piece 609 - Superintendant district of Rusper - District 15, which is described as the "whole of the Parish of Rusper" - contained on 25 sheets of Census. The population of Rusper in 1861 was 590 (source: Genuki/Kellys). This number of souls would be enumerated easily  on 25 sheets of Census (each sheet holding max of 25 names). The WHEATLAND/BIGGS family is there and so are William WHEATLAND's brothers and parents and Olive's parents (she was Olive nee TULLETT). All living very close to each other.

There is also no doubt that Olive was indeed around 20 years senior to her 2nd husband - the 1871 Census alone seems to be an anomaly and contains what I see as no fewer that 4 clear errors when compared to the evidence of other Census and BDM's.

Whilst Older-man/Much-younger-woman marriages were/are always relatively common and Older-Woman/Much-younger-man marriages were/are not - it certainly wasn't unheard of for a woman of approx 40 to marry a man of approx 20, even when she already had children as old as, or older than her new husband (as Olive did have)! Have seen a number of similar instances throughout many searches of census.  The age of 20 or so, is young in our eyes to be taking on such a ready made family - but  in 1860-ish a 20 year old was a man, end of story -  and they were routinely married in very early 20's (especially in the less well-off classes, I'd say, too).

Nor is it at all unlikely  that Olive being born circa 1819, gave birth to her youngest BIGGS child (John), or her WHEATLAND daughters( Ellen, Alice) when  she was between 40 and 45 yrs old approx  - it's well normal for the times (and funnily enough, more common these days too - my daughter is 7 :-). Some women simply had/have no problem falling pregnant in their 40 to mid-40 ages.
Hi f4Monty

I think that your John (born abt 1856 as stated in post marriage census) was Olive's son born as BIGGS  - but Olive's first husband Thomas BIGGS may not be the father.
FreeBMD Thomas BIGGS death registered Jun Qtr 1856, Horsham
Family Search: Thomas BIGGS,  died 18 June 1856 Rusper, age 40 ( born abt 1816)

John's  baptism is on the IGI:
John BIGGS bap. 16 Jan 1859 Rusper
Mother: Olive BIGGS. no mention of a father - indicating illigitimacy - in which case his name would be BIGGS simply because that was his mother's legal name.

I guess  the first job is to take a look at the actual baptism record. See if there are any clues - many questions may have answers there! Was he baptised as a newborn or as an older child? Are there any notes regarding his father or lack of? If he was baptised as an older child, was he legitimate but his father not named because he was dead (some parish clerks has their own little foibles and ways of doing things)?

I think only after checking that could you start addressing the other issues:  Is William WHEATLAND (I think his naming as "John" in 1871 is an error)  his biological father ?  John (as BIGGS)  is enumerated as Step-Son to William in 1861.  If John was not William's natural son, John did at least take on William's name - this would have been quite normal seeing as how William was the only father John ever knew - you also can't discount the high possibility that John never ever even knew himself that William was not his 'real' father.

There is little doubt William /?John? WHEATLAND was the son of James & Ann WHEATLAND  (who never appeared to have a son named John). 

John BIGGS/WHEATLAND had an older brother, Foster BIGGS (whom I can't find a birth for) and John in turn also later named a son "Foster".

There is discrepancy between John's age in 1861 & 1871 (indicating birth abt 1859) and his ages in 1881 and 1901, 1911 (indicating born abt 1856/57) (I can't find him in 1891?).   

On his marriage certificate to Mary - who were the witness and his address? And what was his age?

As you have found, there doesn't appear to be  a birth registration for John circa 1856-1859 which by all accts should be in the Horsham RD. He seems to have been born between his siblings William Albert BIGGS (1854)  and Ellen WHEATLAND (1860). On FreeBMD between these two, is the registration of a Thomas WHEATLAND - in Sep Qtr 1857.

I wonder if this is your John?

The main reason why I wonder,  is this  death rego:

John T WHEATLAND age 86, Croydon, Jun Qtr 1943 (born abt 1857)

is that your John's death? With a middle initial "T" ?

It's also possible his birth was simply not registered. As mentioned, also cannot find a birth rego for his older brother Foster BIGGS in abt 1850 (Horsham district). There is a Mark BIGGS in Dec Qtr 1850 whom I can't connect to anyone though.....

I'd also now check the William WHEATLEY / Olive BIGGS marriage in Dorking RD 1858 (The other couple on the same marriage page as them, appear to be together in 1861 Dorking).  Is this them - I wonder why in Dorking if so - when they and both their families were all seemingly Rusper based (Horsham RD) by around then.  But maybe that was to do with the age difference - perhaps there was a bit of resistance to their plans from the Rusper parish priest!


Cheers
AMBLY

[maudarby]

Just in case this helps
Thomas Biggs age 40 buried 18th June 1856 Rusper St Mary.

Maudarby

[AMBLY]

Because we lookers do like to see the records to help us 'assess'- I'll post the census etc I found prior to posting my msg above - maybe others will have access to local knowledge and recognise where they can help without having to go over it all again!  

WHEATLAND - Shipley Sussex 1841-1851
From the 1841/1851 Census - the family of James & Ann WHEATLAND,  apparently in quite impoverished circumstance.
Note: Ann (wife) was having her last 3 children at age 40, 43, 45, 48 respectively - all quite 'normal' except perhaps for Fanny when she was around 48 yrs old! The baptisms are all on FamilySearch (noted below). Fanny could be an illigitimate grandchild passed off as a daughter - but she  was baptised as James & Ann's.

1841: Workhouse - Shipley, Sussex
HO107 /  Piece 1096 / Book: 12 / Folio: 9 / Page: 11
James WHEATLAND 43, Ag Lab
Ann WHEATLAND 35
James WHEATLAND  12 [bp 20 Aug 1828 Shipley]
Mary WHEATLAND 10 [bp? 12 Dec 1830 West Thorney/Thakeham?]
Ann WHEATLAND  8  [bp 19 May 1833 Shipley]
Henry WHEATLAND 5 [bp 20 Sep 1835, Shipley]
William WHEATLAND 3 [b 18 May 1838, bp 7 Jun 1838 Shipley]
George WHEATLAND  3mths [b 13 Mar 1841, b 18 April 1841 Shipley]

1851: Old Poorhouse - Shipley, Sussex
HO107 /  Piece: 1648 /  Folio: 63 /  Page: 30
Head: James WHEATLAND 52, Ag Lab, b Shipley
Wife: Ann 43?, b Battle (last digit of age obscured - looks like it could be a 3)
Issue: All born Shipley
Son: James 22
Son: Henry 15
Son: William 12
Son: George 10
Son: Edmund 7 [b 16 Nov 1843, bp 10 Dec 1843 Shipley]
Dau: Fanny 4 [ b 20 Sep 1846,bp 25 Oct Shipley]

Olive TULLETT  & Thomas BIGGS
1819: BAPTISM - Newdigate Surrey 4 Oct 1818, Olive TULLETT  born 22 Aug 1818. Parents Daniel TULLETT & Ann.
1838: MARRIAGE - Horsham Mar Qtr 1838, Thomas BIGGS, Olive TULLETT on same page.
1851: CENSUS Rusper:  Daniel & Ann TULLETT reside at HO107 /  Piece: 1648 /  Folio: 425 /  Page: 22

1851:  Horsham Road Cottage, Rusper
Head: Thomas BIGGS 35, Ag Lab b Rusper
Wife: Olive  34, b Newdigate Surrey
Children: Lydia 12, Jane 11, Mary A 8, all b Newdigate and  Clara 4, Julia 2, & Foster 5mths, all b Rusper.

1861:By 1861, James & Ann WHEATLAND are in Rusper with 3 of their children in-house & very near their sons George, Edmund and William:  

1861: Gatewick, Rusper, Sussex
RG9 /  Piece: 609 /  Folio: 77 / Page: 16 &  17
Head: James WHEATLAND 62, Ag Lab, b Shipley
Wife: Anne 54, b N.K.
Son: Henry 25, unm, b Shipley
Dau: Fanny 14, b Shipley
Son: Sam 9, b Shipley [bp 2 Nov 1850 Shipley]

1861: Langhurst Farm, Parish of Rusper, Sussex
RG9 / Piece: 609 / Folio: 77 / Page: 17
Servant: George WHEATLAND 20, unm, Oddman, b Shipley, Sussex
Servant: Edward WHEATLAND 12?, Carter boy, b Shipley, Sussex
In household of farmer George BRANCH & his family

Next but one down the same page are: William and Olive:

Burnt House Cottage:
RG9/ Piece: 609/ Folio: 77/ Page: 17 & 18
Head: William WHEATLAND 23, Ag Lab, b Shipley, Sussex
Wife: Ollive WHEATLAND 42, b Newdigate, Surrey
Step-Dau: Julia BIGGS 21, b Rusper, Sussex
Step-Son: Foster BIGGS 10, Scholar, b Rusper, Sussex
Step-Son: Henry BIGGS 8, Scholar, b Rusper, Sussex
Step-Son: William BIGGS 6, Scholar, b Rusper, Sussex
Step-Son: John BIGGS 2, b Rusper, Sussex
Daughter: Ellen WHEATLAND 5 mths, b Ifield,  (this is probably "Emma" of the 1871).
Lodger: Charles KILLENER 27, marr, Ag Lab, b Ifield, Sussex
Lodger: Mary Ann KILLENER 21, marr. b Rusper, Sussex

Also living at the Burnt House Cottages, next-but-one after William & Olive - are her parents:
Head: Daniel TULLETT 72, Ag Lab, b B\Newdigate Surrey
Wife: Ann TULLETT 73, b Newdigate
Son: Issac TULLET 37??, Ag Lab, b Newdigate
Grand-Dau: Mary A TULLETT 11, b Rusper

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Then:
The 1871 Census: Your John with parents "John" & Olive. And siblings & and uncle.
RG10/ Piece: 840/ Folio: 12/ Page: 21
Healing Road, Croydon, Surrey
Head: John WHEATLAND 34, Ag Labourer, b Shipley, Sussex (b abt 1837) Wife: Olive 39, b Newdigate, Surrey (b abt 1832)
Son: John 12, b Rusper, Sussex
Dau: Emma 10, b Ifield, Sussex
Dau: Alice 7, b Croydon, Surrey
Brother: Edward WHEATLAND 27, Labourer, b Shipley, Sussex
NOTES: This 1871 seems full of errors:
   1) John WHEATLAND snr - is probably William -  Same age & pob as William, son of James & Ann (who didn't appear to have any sone named John.
   2) Olive is probably 52 here not 39. Were they making an effort to 'hide' their age disparity?
   3) Emma is probably Ellen, from the birth reg, & 1861 Census.
   4) Brother Edward, is probably Edmund, per the earlier WHEATLAND family census & 1843 birth/bap reg.

And:
The 1881 Census of your John with wife Mary (COUGHLAN) and his children, and his mother Olive:
Brickfield Cottages, Selsdon Road - Croydon, Surrey]
Head: John WHEATLAND 25, Bricklayer labourer, b Rusper, Sussex (abt 1856)
Wife Mary 25, children: John 5, William A 2, Alice  M 3mths - all born Croydon
Mother: Olive WHEATLAND 62, widow, Nurse, b Newdigate, Surrey (b abt 1819)

In 1891 - Can't find John & Mary  - should be in Croydon?
In 1901 - In Sisland, Norfolk - and a young son age 4, named Foster.
In 1911 - Back in Croydon - son Foster age 14 in household.

Olive in 1891:
1891 Census - 19 Salisbury Road, South Norwood, Croydon, Surrey
RG12; Piece: 595; Folio 94; Page 56
Head: Henry T WHITE 28, Plumber, b Widmore, Kent
Wife: Alice WHITE 27, b Woodside, Surrey
Dau: Alice M WHITE 2, b Woodside
Dau: Olive W WHITE 14mths (under 1 year), b Woodside, Surrey
Mother-in-Law: Olive WHEATLAND 73, widow, living on own means, b Newdigate Surrey (abt 1818)

Cheers
AMBLY

[Sandymc47]

Thanks for that Ambly, it looks like a book lol

Loved to have met Olive, she was a real survivor.

regards Sandymc

[f4monty]

Thanks all so much for your help. Looking forward to ploughing through this info!

Will let you know how we get on.

Stephen

[HarveyRowland]

Saw your post about John and Mary wheatland,I have the marriage certificate as they were on my mothers side of my family. Don't know if the information I have is of any use.

My mum and I have come to a grinding halt with our research into our Wheatland ancestors and would really appreciate some hints and tips on where to go next.

We have no problems with William Albert Wheatland, who was born in 1878 in Croydon. His parents were John Wheatland and Mary, nee Coughlan - and it's this John who becomes something of a mystery. There is no record of him in the 1861 census but there are in subsequent ones, some of which have him born in Rusper, Sussex (except 1891 which says Croydon and 1911 which says Brighton!). His birth year in the censuses is abt 1856. However, having examined the parish registers there is no record of a John Wheatland born in Rusper or anywhere near around 1856.

More strangely, on his marriage certificate his father is listed as William Wheatland. Yet the 1871 census says his father is John Wheatland of Shipley in Sussex. However, no John Wheatland exists from Shipley of that time either!

There is a William Wheatland from Shipley, born in 1838. He married an Olive Biggs, who was born about 20 years earlier than him and had had a family with Mr Biggs including a John born in about 1859, according to the 1861 census. We are wondering whether this John eventually adopted his stepfather's name and is our man? There are discrepancies obviously including birth year but from long studies of the records we can draw no other conclusion!

Any help would be appreciated.