**COMPLETED** Bertha GLOVER born 1833 Wittersham, Kent arrived Sydney 1837

[sue21757]

Bertha King remarried in 1875 to Charles Coxhead.


Cheers Sue

[Neil Todd]

I wonder  Could this also be a Transcription error.
Death in 1850.

V1850812 36A/1850  SANDY  JAMES  AGE 55

Modified.....James Sandy Married a Mary Guide in Mudgee in 1844

Neil        

[Caryn_1]

Hi All

The full information on the marriage certificate states:

Stephen King
Parish of St Mary Denham Court
Widower

Bertha Tandy
Parish of St Mary Denham Court
Widow

30 May 1853
Parish of St Mary Denham Court in the County of Cumberland

George Vidal, Chaplain

This is in the Penrith area, and Stephen and Bertha spent there entire lives in Mulgoa until Stephen's death.

We do know that at some time prior to going to Mulgoa, that Bertha and the family were in the Cabramatta area which is a guesstimate only for the first marriage taking place there. It's entirely possible that it took place elsewhere - also possible that it took place in Mulgoa as well. She was certainly young given she was only 20 when she married Stephen (her second marriage).

Registration of BDM's wasn't compulsory until 1856 - so I may not find anything about the elusive Mr Tandy at all unfortunately.

Stephen King died 1 September 1860 in Mulgoa. Bertha then returned to Morpeth where her daughter was living, and Bertha remarried in 1875 to a Charles Coxhead. Bertha died in 1913 and is buried in Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney.

Stephen King, himself, was also not truly a widower in the sense that we know it today. Divorce was not available to the common person until the late 1800s and was expensive and scandalous. Previously married convicts were permitted to remarry after seven years' separation as long as their spouse was abroad, even if they were still living. The Government encouraged marriage between convicts as it was seen as a means of rehabilitation and more desirable than de facto relationships. Stephen was not permitted to bring his family to Australia with him, so after the 7 year period had elapsed he stated that he was a widower, even though his first wife Ann was still alive in England.

The same cannot be applied to Bertha as she was so young when she married the first time and the second time to Stephen.

Cheers
Caryn

[majm]

Hi All

The full information on the marriage certificate states:

Stephen King
Parish of St Mary Denham Court
Widower

Bertha Tandy
Parish of St Mary Denham Court
Widow

30 May 1853
Parish of St Mary Denham Court in the County of Cumberland

George Vidal, Chaplain

This is in the Penrith area, and Stephen and Bertha spent there entire lives in Mulgoa until Stephen's death.

I wonder how sure you are that St Mary Denham Court, was in the Penrith area. 

The County of Cumberland was and is an extensive area, and includes Cabramatta. 

Cabramatta in the 1850s covered a much larger area than presently recognised.  St Marys, near Penrith was in the 1850s known as South Creek.  Denham Court in the 1850s was where it still is, part of the county of Cumberland,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denham_Court,_New_South_Wales

So, if seeking the earlier marriages for Stephen King and Bertha Tandy both of St Mary Denham Court, perhaps it would be sensible to look around the Denham Court area rather than around Mulgoa.


Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Hi there,

Here is the webpage for the Anglican Church, St Mary the Virgin Denham Court, 30 Church Rd, Denham Court.  Their contact details are on the link, perhaps you may consider contacting them to ask for their archivist to look further through their PRs to see if they have earlier information about Bertha Glover and/or her family, or Stephen King and/or his family.

http://www.dcac.org.au/httpdocs/History.html

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Here is a link re St Marys, (Penrith area)

Before 1788 when Australia was being colonised by the British, the Dharug Tribe of Aborigines held the South Creek area. Up until the building of the St Mary Magdalene Anglican Church, St Marys was called "South Creek" after the main water supply called the "South Creek". The name was changed to "St Marys" after the railway came in the 1860's.

http://www.stmarysregisters.com.au/stmaryssouthcreekhistory.htm

I will try my off line resources for early NSW re KING and GLOVER.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Father's name was George Glover and mother was Amelia Gorham. Bertha was born 3 years before her parents were born in 1833 in Wittersham, Kent, England. Arrived in Australia with the family in 1837. Younger brother George born 1836 also in Wittersham.
Brothers Henry born 1838 and Theodore 1839 after arrival in Australia.

and

... marriage certificate for Bertha is from the NSW BDM. She is listed as Bertha Tandy marrying Stephen King in 1853. On the marriage certificate is states her as being Bertha Tandy - widow married on 30 May 1853 to Stephen King - widower. Marriage Certificate Number 153 Vol. 39C.
On Stephen King's death certificate it states Bertha's name as being Bertha Tandy formerly Glover.
I suspect because the first marriage occurred before registration became compulsory (which was 1856), it may well be difficult to find..

and

This is in the Penrith area, and Stephen and Bertha spent there entire lives in Mulgoa until Stephen's death.
We do know that at some time prior to going to Mulgoa, that Bertha and the family were in the Cabramatta area which is a guesstimate only for the first marriage taking place there. It's entirely possible that it took place elsewhere - also possible that it took place in Mulgoa as well. She was certainly young given she was only 20 when she married Stephen (her second marriage).
Registration of BDM's wasn't compulsory until 1856 - so I may not find anything about the elusive Mr Tandy at all unfortunately. Stephen King died 1 September 1860 in Mulgoa. Bertha then returned to Morpeth where her daughter was living, and Bertha remarried in 1875 to a Charles Coxhead. Bertha died in 1913 and is buried in Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney.

Hi there,

The NSW BDM online website shows that from 1879 (not 1856)  it commenced to receive baptism, marriage and burial records for the years 1825 to 1855 lodged with the C of E Bishop. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm   

May I suggest that you may find the image for her earlier marriage (to Mr Tandy), if it occurred in NSW, by searching the films at the NSW State Library in Sydney.  You should also find the image of the original parish register for her marriage to Mr King there.  Quite often those original parish registers contain far more than the Early Church Records entries at the NSW BDM.   Is it possible that Bertha's birth was not recorded under the surname GLOVER, and if so, what other surname could that be?  It might help with searching for her marriage to Mr Tandy.

  I am sorry, but I don’t understand how Bertha was born before her parents were born.  It just doesn’t make sense to me at all. 
  I have not found the family arriving in Australia in 1837.  Do you have the name of the ship, and the port of arrival. 
  I have found where a baptism for a Henry Glover, with parents as George and Amelia occurred in NSW in 1838, but I cannot find a baptism for Theodore. 


Sorry, but this is also confusing me: 
Bertha marries Stephen King in 1853.  He dies in 1860, and Bertha returns to Morpeth where her daughter was living.   
  How old is the daughter,  who was her father,  why was she not living at Mulgoa with her mother,  how long had Bertha lived at Mulgoa,  and at Cabramatta  and at Morpeth before Stephen King’s death in 1860.

Please UNconfuse me, as it will help me to search for the elusive Mr Tandy.

Cheers,  JM

[Neil Todd]

Hi, Umm a little confused as well

MJM are you saying that Bertha and Mr Tandy may have married at St Mary the Blessed Virgin at Denham Court

If so there is a very small notation in the papers of Rev Thomas Redall of Macquarie Fields which borders Denham Court.
See under.
MISCELLANEOUS CORRESPONDENCE:
1808-1897; Includes letters to Miss Reddall from James Riley, Mrs M. M. Stack, Dr Edward Glover Tennant Mr A. Roberston and Edward Fiennes Trotman. Also other letters inadequately addressed, dated, signed or incomplete.
This may be just a Furphy but what a strange coincidence. In all the correspondence and history of Denham Court which I have read there is no mention of anyone by the name of TANDY.

Neil

[majm]

Hi All, especially Neil,

I think that it is logical to look at the C of E at Denham Court as a likely place for the earlier marriage of Bertha to Mr Tandy.  I can also think of several other logical places:

The Christ Church St Lawrence, still located near Central Station, Sydney... it was a temporary building when the infant Henry Glover was baptised there in January 1839. 

The church where the funeral service of Amelia Glover would have been held in 1839

The church where George Glover's next marriage took place (to Herriot G Champion)

The church where a George Glover married in 1859 (to Isabella Knott)

I wonder who were the witnesses at St Mary, Denham Court to Stephen King's marriage to Bertha Tandy.  And, as that was an ECR then perhaps there is a mis-read as the NSW BDM issues typed up certificates for ECRs.  The original parish record may provide a clear image, and the NSW SL may well also have a clear image. 

The names of the witnesses is included on all the ECR marriages that are in my own family tree.  I have found that quite often they attended the same church, and also their families were "twigs" on side branches (eg godparents, aunties, uncles, cousins).  There's also the clergyman who conducted that 1853 marriage.  Obviously it was he and not Stephen King who recorded that the groom was a widow/er, and of course, it was not just former convicts who were separated from former wives by virtue of journeying 'beyond the seas' ... there's many marriages in NSW that to 21st century eyes seem to be bigamous, and suggestive of fibs being told, yet I doubt any person told fibs, to deliberately expose themselves to the civil crime of Bigamy.   The concept of Colonial Divorce is well covered by a Professor of Law, from Tasmania at this link : http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html 

Re Dr Edward Glover Tennant,  I wonder if that is saying that a Dr Edward Glover was a tennant.  And was the good Dr a medico or a Doctor of Divinity ....

I have not found any likely candidates for Mr Tandy, and it is entirely possible that Bertha's status as "widow" may have come about by Mr Tandy leaving the colony ... perhaps to NZ or to Tas, or to the Gold Rushes in California.  Or, perhaps his surname has been mis-read.  If I am following this thread correctly, Tandy is the surname on the 1853 mc and also on the 1860 dc.  The 1860 d.c. is a civil registration, so it is possible that the real deal certificate will have Bertha's details recorded in her own hand if she was the informant.  Perhaps it will give a clear image of her surnames and the way in which they are recorded.  It would be NSW BDM ref  5509 as that is the only one I can see as registered in the Penrith district for a Stephen King in 1860.

Cheers,  JM