ROBERTS/SMITH Puzzle pieces Missing

[Pauline H]

After purchasing in total 5 certificates/printouts I feel I am no further ahead. Her d.c names her Helena. Her b.c names her Ellen and it appears that she continued her life as Ellen until she died. However on the b.c. it states Ellen Roberts born 08.06.1863 at Ballarat West to Edward Roberts and Mary Caulfield (because I found no record of this, it is being looked into. Ellen's b.c. states her parents married in Melbourne in August 1862). On the d.c. calculation Ellen must have emigrated to New Zealand when she was 15 (no info on this at all) Ellen had 2 brothers (twins) born in Ballarat in 1865 (same parents). I obtained Ellen's daughters (also named Ellen) b.c. hoping to obtain more info but it only states the mother as Ellen Roberts age 42 born in Ballarat. Here lies one little piece I cannot register - if she was age 42 in 1903, this would mean Ellen (the mother) would have been born in 1861. Which certificate should I believe? I am inclined to go with the b.c. from Australia as it gives far more info and corresponds with Ellen's death. Ohhhh dear!!

[~MERLIN~]

Previous thread:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,572741.0.html

[majm]

My personal view, I would tend to rely on the birth registration, particularly if it shows that the infant was present when the birth was being registered....  There's a huge physical difference between an infant and a two year old, and that difference should be noticeable to the clerk recording the information.

Cheers,  JM

[cando]

The Victorian birth certificates detail whether or not the infant was present. Was infant Ellen present at the registration?   I would also rely on the information on the birth certificate.

There is no ROBERT/CAULFIED marriage registered in 1862.  What were the parents' ages on the birth certificate?   It would be interesting to see that date of marriage on the siblings birth certs.  I find it a bit odd considering they were married in Melbourne that there is no registration listed.  If it had taken place in rural Victoria in that era then the possibility of the marriage registration not arriving at the Victorian Registry could have been considered.  Perhaps they never married.

Frankly I don't think it is a good idea to become fixed on the given name and variations, especially if all other information 'matches'.  Information on death certificates only good as the knowledge of the informant.

Which certificate should I believe?

I am inclined to go with the b.c. from Australia as it gives far more info and corresponds with Ellen's death.

Pauline


You have answered your own question

Cheers
Cando

[scullywully]

I have been looking for information about Ellen Roberts for ten years as she disappears from our records age 41. She was my great great grandmother and had 12 children to my great great grandfather Orlando (Hannibal Winnie). My great grandmother told my grandmother that when she was five her mother simply disappeared (she would have been 41) and was never heard from again. Would you mind sharing information with me Pauline, about this interesting woman's life? I have been researching her for so long. Did you know about her past?

[Neil Todd]

Hi Scullywully, It has been over 8 months since Pauline had her last post, but hopefully she will get your notification. Meanwhile welcome to Rootschat

I will keep an eye out for further developments from Pauline maybe she has further to offer on Ellen Roberts.

Neil

[Neil Todd]

Hi, I meant to ask if you have the marriage of Orlando and Ellen

Neil

[scullywully]

Hi, I meant to ask if you have the marriage of Orlando and Ellen

Neil

Hi Neil. Ellen and Orlando never married as Ellen was still married to her first husband Daniel who she married as a teenager.  Ellen and Orlando got together when Daniel sold her - with her agreement -  to him for ten shillings and sixpence. It made the papers and I have the news articles from that period. I guess she had to wait for Daniel to die before she could marry anyone - I think divorce was only affordable for the very rich in those days...? I am glad to know she had a happier life when she left my great great grandfather. I have photos of her twin brothers  and would love to see a photo of her.

[cando]

Hi scullywully

Been fossicking around the records and found the news items.   So we have things in perspective

Ellen's first marriage
1877/2180
ROBERTS Ellen       
McPHERSON Daniel

Birth
1879/4899   
McPHERSON Malcolm    
Mother Ellen   Father Daniel

And then the elopement with Charles NASH and subsequent sale of Ellen by Daniel McPHERSON to Orlando WINNIE for 10/6.

Orlando's first marriage was on 18 Feb 1877 at St John's Presbyterian Church, Willis Street, Wellington.  Orlando Honeyball MINNIE was a farmer, 30 years old and a bachelor.  Emma PITT was 23 years and a spinster. Rev James PATERSON was the minister. Emma died on 31 Jan 1878 the same day as a birth of a daughter.

Children born to Ellen McPHERSON nee ROBERTS and Orlando WINNIE who did not marry.

1881/17050 WINNIE Edith Ellen           Mother Ellen   Father Orlando Henry   
1882/14625 WINNIE Rose Florence    Mother Ellen   Father Orlando Hannibal   
1884/1931   WINNIE William Henry    Mother Ellen   Father Orlands   
1885/10726 WINNIE Francis Earle    Mother Ellen   Father Orlando   
1887/6028   WINNIE Jessie Agnes    Ellen   Orlando   
1890/6641   Winnie    Francis Earle    Ellen   Orlando Hannibal   
1892/10351   Winnie    Ernest John    Ellen   Orlando Hannibal   
1894/13636   Winnie    Harry Orlando    Ellen   Orlando Hannibal   
1896/17092   Winnie    Hector Vincent    Ellen   Orlando   
1897/16005   Winnie    Percy Albert    Ellen   Orlando   
1899/12757   Winnie    Myrtle Lena    Ellen   Orlando