Author Topic: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?  (Read 11261 times)

Offline PrueM

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Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« on: Friday 02 March 12 10:51 GMT (UK) »
Dear experts  :)

Please can you see what you can work out from this photograph of a badge worn on the arm of my OH's relative, Jethro (or Geoffrey) Dobson, who was a waterman at Eton, and swimming master at Eton College, in the 1860s-1890s.

The records of The Worshipful Company of Watermen and Lightermen do not extend to those watermen working as far away as Eton, and while I have not therefore been able to get any apprenticeship etc. info from them, their Administrator to the Clerk was able to tell me that she thought this was definitely a waterman's uniform of some kind, and that the badge was unlike any that she had seen.

Eton College's archivist has given me general information about the duties of their swimming masters, but had no specific details about Jethro or his employment.

In looking more closely at this badge tonight, I wonder whether the arms are those of Eton College.  However, the motto (or what I can read of it, anyway, which consists of the "Y" at centre top, and not much else) does not seem to fit either of the two mottos I've seen for Eton College:  Floreat Etona and Esto perpetua (neither of which have a Y in them!).

The Eton College arms are described as "On a field sable three lily-flowers argent...that portion of the arms, which by royal right belong to Us in the kingdoms of France and England, be placed on the chief of the shield, per pale azure with a flower of the French, and gules with a leopard passant or" (http://www.etoncollege.com/ArmsMotto.aspx)

I would like to know what the more learned among you think, please.  Sorry about the quality of the image - it is scanned from a book (old, and out of copyright) and is the best I can do  :-\

Thank you!

Prue

Online KGarrad

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 02 March 12 10:57 GMT (UK) »
It's a shame that The Watermans's Arms (pub) in Eton doesn't have a coat-of-arms as it's pub-sign!

Thought I was onto something there! ;D
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Offline PrueM

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 02 February 13 09:44 GMT (UK) »
Scratch all that  ;D I think it's the arms of Eton College, as per :

http://www.picturescolourlibrary.co.uk/loreswithlogo/2974893.jpg

What would be the significance of the garter surrounding it, please?


Since posting this picture and having a closer look at the arms, they appear to be encircled by a garter, and at top left of the shield is a fleur de lys.  Across the bottom are three elements that look like birds' legs  ???

......


Offline Little Nell

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 02 February 13 21:04 GMT (UK) »
I wonder if it isn't the Royal Arms with the garter around it?

Unfortunately the photo is not that clear, but possibly there is a harp in the third quarter (lower left hand corner) which might make it the Royal Arms.  I definitely see four quarters rather than the division shown in the arms of Eton College. 

Nell
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Offline Little Nell

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 02 February 13 21:09 GMT (UK) »
Just had a thought - might he also have been a swan upper?  In which case, it might be that uniform he is wearing.  Although having said that, it is probably very similar to the waterman's uniform.

Nell
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Offline PrueM

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 02 February 13 21:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi Nell :)
Thanks for your thoughts.  I admit that I can't see the royal arms in that photo, but it is a poor picture and I'm not an expert in heraldry so don't really know what I'm looking for (for example, I thought that there were three of every element on the shield in the royal arms?)  However, as you say, it would definitely explain the garter. Another thing that put me off the idea of it being the royal arms is that he's not wearing the uniform of a Queen's waterman (http://www.royal.gov.uk/RoyalEventsandCeremonies/Ceremonialbodies/TheQueensWatermen.aspx).

Ohhhh I wish it was a better photo!  So frustrating!

It's not a great stretch of the imagination to think that he might be a swan upper, he was in the right profession and place after all.

He may always remain a bit of a mystery but I'm getting a bit closer to the secrets - thanks Nell :)

Prue

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 02 February 13 22:35 GMT (UK) »
I don't think the badge is right for Swan Uppers?
See here: http://projectbritain.com/swanupping/officials.htm


The Royal Coat of Arms has 4 quarters:
1st qtr (top left) and 4th qtr (bottom right) - 3 leopards for England, one above the other.
2nd qtr (top right) has a lion for Scotland, inside a border.
3rd qtr (bottom left) has a harp for Ireland.

There is a slightly different one for use in Scotland! ::)
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Offline PrueM

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 02 February 13 22:59 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, KG - I agree, the Swan Uppers' badge etc. looks quite different.  Your description of the royal arms goes further to convince me that the thing on his arm is not them. 

What an annoying man he is!  ;D  Poor old Jethro  ;)

Offline casalguidi

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Re: Any help to work out these arms, and the motto?
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 02 February 13 23:01 GMT (UK) »
It certainly looks like the arms of Eton College to me :)

Casalguidi :)
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