Author Topic: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)  (Read 3686 times)

Offline Rose_Frankcombe

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ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« on: Saturday 26 May 12 16:34 BST (UK) »
Hello all,
I seek details on Am(e)y Roberts, born circa 1796.

Am(e)y married William Holborn (Holbon) (Holburn), St George, Hanover Square, in April 1811.

As a widow, she later married Joseph Walden, Chelsea St Lukes, in 1822.

I would like to know who her parents were.

Amey's second husband, Joseph Walden had himself down as a widower when he married her. Can't find any trace of his first wife.

Anyone got any ideas? Would be pleased to have some further clues... Cheers... Rose

Offline Valda

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 26 May 12 20:34 BST (UK) »
Hi

On the 1871 census RG10 679 folio 124, Amy aged 77 gives her birthplace as Piccadilly Middlesex. On the 1861 census RG9 321 folio 41, Amy aged 65 states her birthplace as St James Middlesex. On the 1851 census HO107 1560 folio 66, Amy aged 55 states a birthplace of St Pancras Middlesex.
The likeliest birthplace for Amy from the information fom the censuses would be St James Westminster also known as St James Piccadilly circa 1795, though that doesn't necessarily mean she was baptised at that church.

There are three baptisms at St Mary Newington Southwark with a father Joseph Walden with a consistent occupation (on the third baptism) with the later baptisms with father Joseph and mother Amy in Bermondsey Southwark.

21st August 1814 born 18th March
Susanna Walden parents Joseph and Susanna, York Street, father's occupation carpenter

30th June 1816 born 13th June
Joseph Henry Walden parents Joseph and Susannah, ? Street, Lockfields, father's occupation carpenter.

20th March 1818 born 26th February
Robert George Walden, same parents, ? Buildings, St George's, father's occupation Custom House Officer

The first baptism at St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey in 1823 has Joseph as a Revenue Officer and the next in 1825 as a Custom House Officer.

There is a burial of a Susannah Walden at St George the Martyr Southwark 5th October 1820 but no age is entered in the register. She was of Swan Place Kent Road. Another burial of a Harriot Walden aged 10 weeks at St Mary Newington 13th July 1817 looks to be the same address as the 1816 baptism.

28th August 1808 St Mary Marylebone
Joseph Walden and Susanna Bines
Bachelor and spinster of the parish married by banns. Both made their mark however which would not be consistent with a man who later became a revenue officer (perhaps nerves on the day). Witnesses were Thomas Walden and Amy Webb. As Joseph was older than Amy with a birth circa 1786/7 an 1808 marriage would be possible.

St Mary Newington baptism
17th September 1809 born 12th August
Charles Bines Walden parents Joseph and Susanna


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Valda

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 26 May 12 20:50 BST (UK) »
Hi

An Ann Walden, a child, was buried at St Mary Newington 17th February 1811.

Charles Bines Walden married at St Mary Newington 6th July 1843 to Mary Ann Saunders. They were widower and widow of the parish of full age. Charles was a shoemaker. His father Joseph was a Custom House Officer. Witnesses were Joseph Walden and Harriet Walden who made her mark.


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Rose_Frankcombe

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 27 May 12 03:47 BST (UK) »
Hello Valda,
Coming in 'cold' to this Walden genealogy, especially from this distance of a hemisphere away, one has to be so careful to note the correct family members in their appropriate slots, and there are so many branches of Waldens in and around the London Boroughs.

So far I have Joseph Walden and his wife Am(e)y with daughter Sophia, sons James and John, although there is an anomaly on James' birth record, with his mother being written down as Emma instead of Amey. One could jump to all sorts of conclusions about this, but I am of the belief there was a ledger entry error.

Joseph certainly was a Customs House Officer. I can't place where Harriet might come in, unless she was a child of Joseph's first marriage. I wonder how old she was at the time of Charles' marriage...

The Saunders name is ringing a bell... I have been trying to connect Amey, nee Roberts, to a branch of the Roberts family I've been tracking. Edward Roberts married a Jane Saunders in Battersea, in 1796, around the time Amey was born. I'm not saying this is her father but Edward could be an uncle.
 
The further Roberts connection is, that James, Amey's son, was articled to Learmonth & Roberts, leather manufacturers, Bermondsey, circa 1845, aged 14. My goal is to connect Amey Walden, nee Roberts, to the Roberts of this partnership. So far I haven't yet been able to find which 'Roberts' was the partner during James' apprenticeship.

I have tracked three Roberts' from an earlier partnership and the vibes here are good, but this partnership dissolved circa 1837, then the Learmonth and Roberts one took over.

I wrote all of the above based on your 20.50 post, Valda, not seeing the earlier 20.34 post until this moment... What you have noted is quite significant and I will take the time to follow up all of these new clues. It's very exciting when doors open with the simple notation of a name to lead you on.

Joseph Walden lived with his second family in St George in the East, occupation Revenue Officer/Custom House Officer.

All of the children of this union were baptised here, so my long-standing question is, when he, Joseph, and Amey married in Chelsea St Luke, why was this so, as there would have been some distance to travel from one place to another. My assumption is that the groom travelled to the bride's parish for this event, fulfilling the requirements of the banns, ie 'of this Parish'. Supposition for now...

Before I close this post I will thank you for being so thorough in your response to my enquiry. I really appreciate your reply... Thank you... Rose


Offline Valda

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 27 May 12 07:58 BST (UK) »
Hi

The 1841 census HO107 697 BK1 folio 31 has Joseph and his family in St George in the East Middlesex. The 1851 census - 1861 census has Joseph and Amy in Bermondsey with Amy with daughter Sophia in Lambeth Surrey in 1871.

Their children are baptised initially at St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey Southwark Surrey.

1823 George Robertson Walden (Emma)
1825 William (Amy) - there is a burial of a William Walden at St Thomas Southwark in 1826, but no age is given, from St Thomas Hospital.

then St George in the East Middlesex

1828 Sophia (Amey)
1831 James (Emma)
1834 John Hansell Waldon (Amey) misspelling of surname in the register
1836 Jane (Amey) buried 14th July 1839 St George in the East - 3 years 2 months

All the baptisms of the children with his first wife were in Southwark at St Mary Newington.

Variations between Amy and Emma in the C19th are not uncommon and it is the parish clerk who is making the entry and the spelling not Amy herself.

Calling banns or obtaining a licence to marry we're not cheap. For banns if the couple were of two different parishes the expense was double since the banns had to be called in both parishes. To be of the parish merely required three weeks residency. It was common in cities at least, that one partner would move to the other parish for the three weeks necessary to avoid the additional expense of two lots of banns. By tradition marriages took place in the woman's parish, but parish residency in the London area with many parishes close together and relatively small in size, but large in population, could be very transitory.

Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Valda

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 27 May 12 08:42 BST (UK) »
Hi

When William Holborn/Holbourn and Amy baptised their three children altogether at St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey 30th May 1819 William was a leather dresser of Long Lane Bermondsey.
The children were William, Mary Ann and Harriot. Their eldest child Eliza was baptised at St Luke Chelsea in 1812.

The leather trade connection may come through the Holborn/Holbourn family and not through the Roberts family which may just be coincidental, the surname being so common.

Though it doesn't state it on Amy's first marriage in 1811 if she was born circa 1795 she would have to have been a minor on her marriage - only around 16.

Eliza's 1812 baptism and Amy's second marriage in 1822 at St Luke's Chelsea does indicate she had a connection to Chelsea. William her first husband was buried 18th February 1822 St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey aged 30 of St George's. Her second marriage was 7th May in the same year so she likely knew Joseph in Southwark and the marriage was mutually convenient considering as widow and widower they both had young children.

Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Rose_Frankcombe

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 27 May 12 10:03 BST (UK) »
Again, Valda, you have come up with the goods. Thank you.

Although I couldn't find them, I had thought that William Holburn and Amy may have had children. It's easy to dismiss the various locations of the many churches, because if one takes the stance that a family would be true to its one local church, or to one you know is near to where they had lived, then the journey to finding them is limited. I had hoped, too, that Amy's father might have been noted, but he wasn't.

And here we have the 'leather' connection, through at least, William. I'm still not giving up on the idea of the Roberts connection just yet! LOL

I have the details of Amy's marriage to Joseph, and had hoped the witnesses may have led me further, but the names don't as yet mean anything to me. I'm basing her birth year on the ages given in the censuses.

So there you have it again, with Eliza, St Luke's Chelsea, where Amy and Joseph were married.

As to the spelling of Amey, there are various documents that oscillate between Amey and Amy, but on the marriage document with Joseph, the signature is clearly Amy.

I had a theory that whoever may have noted 'Emma' may have been hard of hearing, allowing for regional accents, or perhaps may have had faulty eyesight... I don't read anything further into that one. Although at first it does take you by surprise and sets the brain cells a-jangle to find Emma noted instead of Amy.

I can't thank you enough for giving the names of the additional children, from the first marriage and from the second. For the times it just didn't appear to be right for there to be just the 3 children such as I had found, even allowing for medical reasons or perhaps age that could have precluded more.

That's interesting re the banns and the double-dipping of costs if intending spouses were in different parishes. I have seen in some instances that the addresses of the bride and groom are one-in-the-same, suggesting to me now that the groom, as I would think, has moved in with the family until such time as the marriage takes place.

And, yes, I had thought that it would have been the bride's parish where the wedding would mostly take place.

I have seen some early images, painted scenes, where the church spires predominate as satellites around St Paul's. There's an amazing number when you take the time to count them...

Much to now digest. Again, thank you so much... Cheers... Rose

Offline Valda

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 27 May 12 16:19 BST (UK) »
Hi

I have given an incorrect burial date for William Holburn. It should read 8th February 1821 - my eye was taken by another name in the index when I came to write the date.
With the correct date that means that William left a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will, unusual for a younger man.

PROB11/1639
Proved 14th February 1821
William Holburn
18 Rephidrin Street St George's Surrey

You can order and receive the will electronically  immediately from The National Archives. It will be a copy of the original will - copied by the PCC clerks at the time into ledgers, so in secretarial hand which can be tricky to read.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/default.asp

There may or may not be a Death Duty entry in the Death Duty registers to go with it, but these are records held at TNA and not online.


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Rose_Frankcombe

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Re: ROBERTS, AMEY (married: Holborn; Walden)
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 27 May 12 16:24 BST (UK) »
Cheers, Valda, will follow this up... Rose