Author Topic: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]  (Read 5355 times)

Offline jk22

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Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]
« on: Thursday 17 January 13 23:44 GMT (UK) »
I think i may have been here before i just don't know when.  However i'd really like to check one last time before i close my trees at end January.

This man married my maternal great greatgrandmother ELIZABETH LOUISE VAREY [nee Hobson] in 1858 in Victoria, Australia.  I have Elizabeth's details in large measure.

His Australian marriage and death registrations name his parents as GEORGE LASCELLES, Physician.  His mother's first name only is known: ESTHER.

He states in various records he was born in Dublin, in 1830.  I have not found an Ireland or UK record re this. 

However i did find an internet Irish record [Tipperary Clans Archive] which gives a Frederick Lascelles as born "20.10.1823" "No 5956"  "Harewood House"  "20 YA  Brother to William, Edwin, Arthur, Charles Lascelles" 6th son of Earl & Countess of Harewood".  This was the only Frederick i found in any search in this time zone.

'My' man dropped the use of his first name and was, when alive, called William.  All formal records i have use his full name.  However his teaching record does only use 'William'.

He probably emigrated in the early to mid 1850's; i don't know if he had an early professional qualification.  He worked the goldfields, was in trouble with the law [ abandoned his wife,  Eliz.], but later worked as a teacher in the goldfields region and later qualified as such.  He had a number of teaching assessments which remarked he was going severely deaf but until the very end he generally received positive evaluations of his work. Upon retiring he received a government pension until his death.

His first wife, Eliz., died in 1866 after giving him 4 children.  He remarried in 1868 to Rosaline Down Headlam Pascoe, nee Hutch.  She later divorced Frederick William, but died a 'Lascelles' .  Rosaline had 2 sons with William. 

[Frederick] William Lascelles' dates:  1830-14 Aug 1896. 
Died 66 Park Street East, South Melbourne, Victoria.

Much family 'talk' has it that Frederick William Lascelles [FWL] was connected to the English aristocratic Lascelles, Harewood line.  Several children of FWL's children have incorporated 'Harewood' in their names.

When in the Australian colony FWL was in legal/police 'trouble' in his early life [say late 20's] he seems to have used an alias - "Quin".  He had even been a policeman for a short time in the colony [before Victoria became a state i think.]  In the police warrant it said he was working the goldfields at Steiglitz.  It also gives a physical description of him.

I'd very much like to have some clarity on the veracity or not of this purported link to the Harewood family.  Is there any chance of finding more on Frederick William Lascelles' origins please?

Julie

BOYD: Scotland
FERGUSON: Scotland
KEMP:  Wiltshire, Berkshire, Middlesex, Essex, England
GREEN & DEEVES:  Essex, Middlesex, Suffolk, England
MCPHERSON:  Sutherland-Highlands, Edinburgh, Scotland
MILES & MOWAT:  England, South Africa; Australia
GREATREX: England; South Australia
PERKINS:  Cornwall; South Australia
WATKINS: Wales

Offline shanew147

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]
« Reply #1 on: Friday 18 January 13 08:24 GMT (UK) »
Problem with just 'Dublin' is that it's not very specific, as it can refer to the city, suburbs or county and consists of quite a number of parishes. Not all of these parishes have records available online or have details back as far as 1830.

Do you know what denomination Frederick's family were ?

I had a look for any sign of George in 1820s, 30s and 40s Dublin city directories, but no sign of him. (Physicians are usually listed)


Shane
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Offline jk22

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]
« Reply #2 on: Friday 18 January 13 21:15 GMT (UK) »
Hello Shane,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I think he meant he came from the city of Dublin and i suspect only that he was a non-Catholic.  However he did use the alias of 'Quin' whilst working as a policeman, so he may have been. 

The police warrant seeking him for wife desertion describes him as 'imperious' hence my suspicion that he had aristocratic leanings, if not heritage?!

In the colony he married my gggrandmother in a central Melbourne city Presbyterian church.

I take you point about George Lascelles, Frederick's father.  Surely a physician is to be recorded.  I wonder if he was illegitimate or that his parents were perhaps from the North Yorkshire set but perhaps 'fell out' in some way.  I just don't know. ::)

Would this help any further searching?
Kind regards
Julie



BOYD: Scotland
FERGUSON: Scotland
KEMP:  Wiltshire, Berkshire, Middlesex, Essex, England
GREEN & DEEVES:  Essex, Middlesex, Suffolk, England
MCPHERSON:  Sutherland-Highlands, Edinburgh, Scotland
MILES & MOWAT:  England, South Africa; Australia
GREATREX: England; South Australia
PERKINS:  Cornwall; South Australia
WATKINS: Wales

Offline shanew147

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]
« Reply #3 on: Friday 18 January 13 22:05 GMT (UK) »
Nothing much I can think of to try for Irish searches, especially if he used an alias or illegitimate and not using his actual birth surname. If his father actually was a doctor/physician/surgeon of some sort, and actually named Lascelles based somewhere in Ireland, I think he probably would have shown up in a directory, but will keep the name in mind when I'm trying other searches..

There are parish records for Dublin city available on www.irishgenealogy.ie , but just one Presbyterian congregation, and strictly speaking that particular church was in County Dublin and so outside the city.

I'm wondering is the surname was one sometimes listed as ' like the way names like L'Estrange sometimes are ?
Might be complicating any searches for them...



Shane
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Offline jk22

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 19 January 13 06:15 GMT (UK) »
Hello Shane,
Thanks for your thoughts.
Could i ask you about the out of Dublin search - would he have come from the country if not found in the city itself?  I'm really only guessing thinking that when he said, in Australia, he was from Dublin, i thought he may have thought that's what other folk would think too!?
I searched the website you gave to no avail.
Would you comment on the Tipperary find mentioned in my earlier post please?
Might this be worth following up?  I just went to the PRONI website to ask for a search with my scant information.  Here's hoping!
Julie
BOYD: Scotland
FERGUSON: Scotland
KEMP:  Wiltshire, Berkshire, Middlesex, Essex, England
GREEN & DEEVES:  Essex, Middlesex, Suffolk, England
MCPHERSON:  Sutherland-Highlands, Edinburgh, Scotland
MILES & MOWAT:  England, South Africa; Australia
GREATREX: England; South Australia
PERKINS:  Cornwall; South Australia
WATKINS: Wales

Offline shanew147

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 19 January 13 09:30 GMT (UK) »
.....
Could i ask you about the out of Dublin search - would he have come from the country if not found in the city itself?  I'm really only guessing thinking that when he said, in Australia, he was from Dublin, i thought he may have thought that's what other folk would think too!?
....
Would you comment on the Tipperary find mentioned in my earlier post please?
Might this be worth following up?  I just went to the PRONI website to ask for a search with my scant information.  Here's hoping!
...

For early dates like this you need a detailed location to start a search - ideally the name of the town, townland or parish. Very few Presbyterian church records are included in any of the online sites that cover southern Ireland at the moment.

If he was telling  the truth abut his name etc, then I think his father is the place to start. If some mention of a professional person like a physician cannot be found then I have doubts that it will be possible to prove anything on this Frederick with any degree of certainty. As far I can see Harewood House is in Yorkshire in England, and a long way from Dublin, which is where Frederick's records mentioned as his place of birth. I think the details on that Frederick Lascelles mentioned earlier may possibly be mistranscribed, as there are several references to his death in the month & year mentioned, rather than birth, of 'The Hon. Frederick Lascelles, sixth son of the second Earl of Harewood, died Oct. 13th, 1823, aged 20.'  The '20 YA' in the earlier reference seems to be a reference to his age at death, so seems to be a different Frederick Lascelles.

PRONI covers Northern Ireland - and they hold many of the various church records. They dont carry out search, and in any case you require a detailed location and denomination to start a search there also.


Shane
Remember to check the Resource boards :  Ireland, Dublin, Antrim & Cork (and stickies at the top of other county sub-forums)    
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Offline jk22

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL] COMPLETED
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 19 January 13 20:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi Shane.

I'm leaving this now and i thank you for stating the 'lie of the land'.

Julie
BOYD: Scotland
FERGUSON: Scotland
KEMP:  Wiltshire, Berkshire, Middlesex, Essex, England
GREEN & DEEVES:  Essex, Middlesex, Suffolk, England
MCPHERSON:  Sutherland-Highlands, Edinburgh, Scotland
MILES & MOWAT:  England, South Africa; Australia
GREATREX: England; South Australia
PERKINS:  Cornwall; South Australia
WATKINS: Wales

Offline wgl220

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 10 February 15 10:44 GMT (UK) »
 Greetings Julie,
I have noted with great interest your post and chat with Shane.
My name is Wayne Lascelles in Melbourne. We share common great great grand parents... Frederick William Lascelles and Elizabeth Louise Varey (nee Hobson),married in 1858.
One of their 4 children - Walter George Lascelles born 1861 was my grandfather and in turn his son Walter John Lascelles born 1907 was my father. I am very happy to share details if you wish.
In tracking our family back to Frederick William's parents George Lascelles ( Physician) and his wife Esther in Dublin I have also hit a brick wall as so far I've not been able to obtain a direct link with the Irish branch of our family. One question I have... Did George L have any brothers or sisters?
Whilst many official Irish records of this time are simply not readily available I am intending to pursue parish records of baptisms/births/deaths etc. Ill keep you posted on progress.....
Best regards,
Wayne Lascelles   

Offline LH

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Re: Frederick William Lascelles [FWL]
« Reply #8 on: Friday 13 February 15 13:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi

May be totally unrelated but two Lascelles children were baptised in Kilternan CoI, Co Dublin:-

Francis Henry born 16 Jan 1825 - Madras
Mary Catharine born 24 June 1826 - Coast of Malabar

Both were baptised on 18 May 1828.

I assume from the mention of Madras and Coast of Malabar, that these children were born abroad but back in Co Dublin before their baptism in May 1828.

Not sure whether parents names are shown.

Cheers
LH