John Turnbull married Helen Laidlaw 1833 Hobkirk

[Cousin Cath]

I am searching for John Turnbull's birth or baptism date, the names of his parents and his death date. Based on the naming order of his children, his father was probably John Turnbull. This is what I know.

John was born in Roxburghshire, Scotland.

The banns were said for John Turnbull and his future wife Helen Laidlaw on 22 Dec 1833 in Hobkirk, Roxburghshire, Scotland.

John Turnbull and Helen Laidlaw appear in the 1841 census in Hawick, Roxburghshire with their three children - John 6, William 2 and Helen 1. The ages for John and Helen are given as 30. I am told that census takers in that census were instructed to round ages to nearest 5 or 0...which would mean that John's age was somewhere between 28 and 32...and his birth year 1808- 1813. ( Helen was born 21 Jun 1808 in Bonchester Bridge, Roxburgh to William Laidlaw and Helen Douglas. At the time of the census, Helen  would have been 32 or 33.) John's occupation was listed as a "joiner" (carpenter).

John and Helen (Ellen) Turnbull immigrated to Canada about 1842. (1842 was the year that her sister Christian Laidlaw Gowanlock  and her family emigrated to Canada.)

In the 1850's, the southern tier of Waterloo County was "Little Scotland". The area was
a significant location for Scottish immigrants.

Helen/Ellen is listed as a widow in the 1851/2 Canadian Census with four children. They were living in Galt, Ontario. Their fourth child (Thomas) was listed as being born in Upper Canada and being 7 years of age...born 1844.

Their oldest son John Turnbull married Jessie Burnett on 30 May 1861 at W Dumfries, Waterloo Region, Ontario, Canada. Jessie was the daughter of Alexander Burnett.

Their daughter Helen first married James William Fraser on 24 Jun 1863 in Galt, Waterloo County, Ontario, Canada. Helen married secondly John Charles McKeggie on 24 Oct 1878, Wellington County, Ontario Canada.

Helen died on December 28, 1898 and is buried in Mount Pleasant Cemetery in Toronto, Ontario with her daughter Helen  and son-in-law J.C. McKeggie.

[alan14578]

Cath.They married 22/12/1833 at Hobkirk. On checking births there is a John christened 18/7/1811 Hobkirk with the father Robert as the only parent shown.
At Cavers in 1813 there is a John born to John Turnbull/Elizabeth Stavert
also at Cavers on 24-7-1808 a John born to Alexander and Jean Scott
At Wilton 6-3-1811 another John born to John and Margaret Dalgleish
also 19-8-1812 at Wilton a John born to James and Nelly Muir
This covers Hobkirk Cavers and Wilton although its possible he could have been younger when he got married.
I assume John died over there to get his death record?
hope this helps
alan

[IanB]

While not universal, I believe that in the 1841 census most adult's ages were recorded in complete 5-year units. So, someone recorded as 30 could have been 30; 31; 32; 33; or 34

IanB

[JMStrachan]

Yes, 1841 ages were usually rounded down to the nearest 0 or 5, so 30 would be aged between 30 and 34, and the census was taken early in the year, so age 30 gives a birth date of between 1806 and 1811. Though census ages aren't always accurate.

As Helen's parents were William and Helen, and that's what they named their second son and first daughter, it looks as if they used the Scottish name pattern. So yes, John's father being called John wouldn't be unexpected. Did they have another daughter? She'd be likely to have the same name as John's mother.

[still_looking]

Were the Gowanlock's related to or accompanied by Flowers?

Also, are any of their gravestones located in the Pioneer Pergola?

Regards,

S_L

[IanB]

Cath,
A couple of thoughts, which may already have occurred to you. Did the John who married Helen have any siblings? If he did, perhaps you could search for any births/christenings in those names, having John as a father. Then cross-match against the births of Johns to a John to see whether there is a common mother.
I notice that John & Helen's 3rd son was called Thomas. Often the 3rd son was named after his father but "John" was already taken so the 3rd son might have been named after someone the father & mother held in high regard, for example the father's brother.

Good luck,
Ian

[Cousin Cath]

I am wondering if there are some BMD books missing or if John Turnbull and Helen Laidlaw married and had their children baptized in a non-conformist church in Scotland....since the OPR shows that their banns were on 22 Dec 1833 in the Hobkirk Parish Church but I can't find an OPR for their wedding or for the baptisms of their children. I am unsure how to check into this further.

I have been unable to determine whether this John Turnbull had any siblings.

Thank you for information about 1841 census which would suggest that John was born between 1807-1811. Unfortunately, my current remaining "possibilities" show a later date of birth. If you have any info on these John Turnbull's please let me know - it will help me eliminate them as contenders.

A. possibilities for  John Turnbull  who married Helen Laidlaw- need more information:
(Scotlands People lists 9 John Turnbull’s of which 4 had a father named John ; 1 in Selkirkshire)

1.} 19 Aug 1812 , Melrose, Roxburgh mother Alison Bathgate (father John born 1784 Melrose)- children:Alison 1810,John 19 Aug 1812 Melrose C11799-6; Jean 1814; Agnes 1816; George 1818: Margaret 1820) (Alison’s parents – George Bathgate and Malisa Purves)

2.} 24 Jul 1813 , Ancrum, Roxburgh, C11780-2 father John Turnbull possible mother Margaret Young married 3 Jan 1818 M117804. Possible sister Bella born 1808

3.} 10 May 1813 , Cavers, Roxburgh mother Elizabeth Stavert C11785-4- father John Turnbull
4.} 18 Feb 1813 Hawick, mother Isabel Wilson –(children  George born11/7/1806, Walter “ 26/10/1807 “died at birth; Walter “2/1/1809 - “ 20/2/1809; William 28/7/1810 - 27/8/1810; James 26/7/1812 5/3/1812 John 18 Feb 1813 C11789-4; 



B. I have eliminated these John Turnbull's as possibilities for the one who married Helen Laidlaw:
1.} John Turnbull  born 1806, Hawick, Married Jane Murray –children Elizabeth 1832, Margaret 1834, Jane 1839, James 1842,Margaret 1845)
2) John Turnbull  b Oct. 07,1806 in Glasgow to John Turnbull and Alison Noble, Marriage 13 April, 1828,  Glasgow, Lanarkshire to Janet Yuille. In the 1841 Census he was a ropemaker,
3.} John Turnbull b. 01 May 1814 Lilliesleaf, Roxburgh, mother Ann Boa(1788-1838) ( tree shows John’s father as born 1791 in Lilliesleaf d 3 Feb 1833 – children John 1814,Agnes 1816,Andrew 1819; James 1821; William 1823; Ebenezer 1826.; John’s parents John Turnbull 1760 and Euphemia 1764-1795) This 1814  John married Grace Clapperton and died 3 Feb 1853 in Montreal, Quebec, Canada
5.} John Turnbull b.21 Dec 1805 Melrose , mother Jean Currie
6.} Turnbull born 5 Mar 1808 , Kelso, Roxburgh, died 05 Mar 1808 –not named
7.} John Turnbull b. 15 Jul 1813 Hassendean, Minto, Roxburgh, mother  Margaret Hond/Houd b, 1780 Hassendean & John Turnbull b 13 February 1777 in Denholm, Cavers, Roxburgh, Sct  The 1813 John married Nancy Temple. He died 10 jan 1887 Roxburgh)
8.] John christened 18/7/1811 Hobkirk with the father Robert as the only parent shown….father is more likely to be a “John”
9.] at Cavers on 24-7-1808 a John Turnbull born to Alexander and Jean Scott
10) At Wilton 6-3-1811  John born to James Turnbull  and Margaret Dalgleish.
11. ] 19-8-1812 at Wilton a John born to James and Nelly Muir
born 1806, Hawick, Married Jane Murray –children Elizabeth 1832, Margaret 1834, Jane 1839, James 1842,Margaret 1845)

I have had no luck at finding John Turnbull's grave in Ontario. I did find a John Turnbull from Roxburghshire who died in Ayr, Ontario in 1843 but he turned out to be a tailor born in Lilliesleaf in 1801.

I thank you all so much for your helpful comments.

[Malcolm33]

    My Turnbull's from that same period pop up all over the place from Roxburghshire down to Stanhope in Durham.    James Turnbull gave his birthplace as Scotland in one Census and as Simonsburn, Northumberland in another.    I read something though which said that the Simonsburn parish was very extensive and even covered a part of Scotland.     Looks like one of his sons settled in Wark Northumberland.

    So don't be put off by any who appear to fit the bill but are born in England.   The old drover's road went down through was is now Kielder Forest to Hexham and later on there was a railway line which went that way.    Some of it now lies under a new reservoir.

[Cousin Cath]

I paid for a little research on John Turnbull and am pleased to share the following :

John Turnbull was born on April 1, 1807 in Hawick, Roxburghshire, Scotland. He was baptized on 1 Sept 1807.His baptism  is recorded in the register of the Hawick Associate Church (NAS reference CH3/1633/1)  His parents were Margaret Murray (from Wilton) and John Turnbull (from Hawick). John Turnbull Senior was a baillie in Hawick.

When John Turnbull Jr. was about 14, he was apprenticed to become a joiner like his father.

The banns were proclaimed for John Turnbull and Helen Laidlaw on 22 Dec 1833 at Bonchester Bridge in Hobkirk Parish where Helen lived. After their marriage, they lived in Hawick where their  three children were born.

In 1836, John and his father purchased some tenement houses in Hawick and rented some  out. At the time of the 1841 Scottish census, John and Helen were living on Round Close with their three children. His parents lived nearby on High Street as did his married sister Jane Brunton and her family.

John, Helen and the children emigrated to Canada about 1842 possibly when Helen’s sister Christian Gowanlock and her family emigrated there. Helen and John’s fourth child, Thomas, was born in Upper Canada in 1844. John must have died by 1849. In 1849, the tenements purchased by John Turnbull and his father in 1836 were inherited by Jane Turnbull and her husband Thomas Brunton.

In the 1852 , Helen is listed as a spinster/widow in Galt, Ontario. Her children John 17 (moulder ), William 15, Helen 13 and Thomas 7 are with her. In the 1861, Helen and children were still in Galt. Helen died on 28 Dec 1898 at the age of 90.