Which Army uniform

[smeghead]

i have emailed the royal regiment of wales museum with a copy of the pic and everything i know hopefully i will get an answer meanwhile thank you  every one for your help if any more info comes i would be grateful.

                    jim

[regiments]

With the amalgamations of 1881 facing colours were simplified.  Royal regiments - royal blue; English and Welsh regiments - white; Scottish - yellow; Irish - green. Following some resistance by regiments who had longstanding facing colours with traditions behind them, over time many of these regiments regained their old facings.  'Jam-pot' cuff seen in the photo was introduced in 1881.  There being also resistance to this, one later modification was to the sergeant's cuff to which a crowsfoot or knot was added.  (Carman 'British Military Uniforms'p142).  Thus the photo is later than 1881.

However, shoulder titles were used by other ranks for the first time on the khaki drill uniforms in India in 1885.  'Home service and other forms of dress at first had the title of the regiment stitched into the shoulder strap.'  (Westlake 'Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles' p1).   I think theres a good chnace that work on the photo with something like Photoshop might resolve this title to SWB.  There are also collar-dogs present but I don't have information on these.

The flag of St. George seems to make no difference since their is a clear picture of an SWB man with identical badging in Regiment magazine #43 p 40 of which the caption claims it dates to 1885.  However in that picture the knot referred to above is absent form the cuff so it would seem the SWB's fight to have this addition didn't succeed until after that date.

The regiments website places the 1st Battalion in Ireland as follows:
*26 September 1883 - September 1885 Kilkenny, Ireland (detachments at Killarney, Waterford and Duncannon)
September 1885 - October 1886 Curragh Camp, Ireland
October 1886 - September 1887 Birr, Ireland
September 1887 - December 1889 Dublin, Ireland, (in camp Phoenix Park August - October 1889), Balls Bridge, November 1889*

I would say therefore that your man is a SWB and the photograph dates 1885-1890.

You will find some helpful information on further research at the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th/41st) Museum website
http://www.rrw.org.uk/   They will probably be willing to identify the uniform fully if you send a scan to them.

But you will need to establish his first name to get anywhere.  Also you may not have any luck with the 1881/91 censuses since these were not preserved for Ireland which is where they were quite probably living on these census dates.

[regiments]

First apologies.  I'm new to the mechanics of the board and have only now discovered page 2; thus the redundandancy of some of my earlier remarks.

I wonder though SudsOne if you could take a look at the collar-dogs in the same way and see what you come up with.  Since the right one is practically face on you might have less distortion.

Meanwhile I have looked through all of Westlake's illustrations and find that the form where the number would appear in the position you suggest doesn't appear anywhere.  The nearest candidates for your hypothesis are Lancashire Fusiliers (grenade/LF) and Irish Fusiliers (grenade/IF).  In the case of the 17th Leicesters, the lower part of the emblem in every case is a half ellipse LEICESTER, LEIC, or LEICESTERS.

[smeghead]

I have had a reply back from the welsh borders museum and the curate after looking at the picture dose not think my Gr Gr grandfather was a welsh border. I have tryed to enlarge his collar but still can not see it very well I am  still hoping to get a reply from army historian uniform specialist

                                                  Jim

[regiments]

Does he say why he thinks not and does he suggest any other possibilities?

[smeghead]

he thinks he is a welch fuselier

[regiments]

The problem is that as someone mentioned earlier the facings of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers at this time were blue.  This is listed in Carman and indeed all the Royal Fusilier regiments such as the R. Dublin Fus., R. Munster Fus., R. Irish Fus., R. Inniskillen Fus.,(all of which which you'd expect to have green);R. Fus., R. Scots Fus. have blue.  In contrast, the Lancs Fus., and the Northumberland Fus. have white facings since they do not have the Royal designation.  So I believe the curator may be mistaken in this case.

The other problem is that there is no association between the R. Welsh Fus. and the Zulu War.

I think what you could best do is the work back through getting the marriage and birth certificates of this line.  You are almost bound to find some indication of the regiment on his marriage certificate.

You could also try asking for identification through the British Regiments mailing list.  This list contains some of the very best, if not the very best, experts on British Regiments.  You can find details of how to subscribe at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/britregiments/
or you can send an email with an empty subject line and only the word subscribe in the message part.

I'm sure we'd all be interested in the results of whichever avenue you pursue.  It's completely maddening not to pin one of these down.

Kitzmiller shows the R. Welsh Fus, in Ireland in 1883 and 1888 only but doesn't say where.

BTW is there any indication on the phot of the studio address, any pencil markings etc?

Best of luck.

[regiments]

Oops!

"or you can send an email with an empty subject line and only the word subscribe in the message part."

Forget the address to sebd the email which is:

britregiments-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

[Judy Pengilly]

99% certain, Colour Sergeant 17th Regiment of Foot (Then) The Royal Leicestershire Regiment, (Now) The Royal Anglian Regiment, Quite possibly around 1881.  The crowns on his uniform (Badges) are Queens Crowns, in this case Victoria.  The crossed rifles with the crown above indicates Master (Musketry) at Arms.  Hope this helps.