William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children

[snaptoo]

Hi aghadowey

Many thanks for that info Any Killen info gratefully received

I joined this thread as I recognised a few names from my recent research.

I had been wondering about starting my own thread, before finding this one. What are your thoughts on that matter Should it be split

snaptoo

[Gilby]

Thanks Aghadowey – Yes that is of interest.  I think I had Blanche (my 1st cousin, 4 times removed) married to a Cameron, but didn’t know more.  Those marriages across the water often prove tricky to find (unless you know where to look).

Pablo, I’m afraid I’ve drawn a bit of a blank with these McAuleys.

I see James McAuley lived in ‘Ardymagh’ which I guess must be “Big Ardymagh” at the northern end of Ballynashee.  Unfortunately the Griffith’s map on Askaboutireland doesn’t have the plots numbered, but it looks like the McAuleys probably lived within a mile of my ancestor Edward Killen at Glenville, Jockeysquarter.

I had a look at the valuation books for Ballynashee to see if that would tell us anything.  It hasn’t really, but this is what I noted down anyway.

#23 (house and 140a)
?-1874 = James McCawley from Reps James/Jane Price
1874-1875 = James McAuley (spelling changed)
1874- = John McAuley from Reps Jane Price

#33 (house and 169a, then 50a after 1867)
?-1863 = John McCawley from Reps Jane Price
1863-1883 = Robert McAuley from Reps Jane Price
1883- = George McAuley from Reps Jane Price

#35 (house and 4a)
?-1863 = Andrew McMeekin from John McCawley
1863-1867 = Andrew McMeekin from Robert McAuley
1867-1876 = Andrew McMeekin from Edward Killen
1876- = Andrew McMeekin from James McCurdy

#36 (119a)
1867-1876 = Edward Killen from Reps Jane Price
1876-1890 = James McCurdy from Reps Jane Price
1890- = Reps James McCurdy from Reps Jane Price

Property #33 (169a) was split into #33 (50a) and #36 (119a) around 1867 – probably something to do with the Larne-Ballymena railway line which looks to have been there by about 1877?

The Edward Killen who had #36 for a while was probably Edward (1833-1909), son of Edward Killen of Glenville.  He emigrated to Australia in 1876 which fits with the above.

[Gilby]

There are plenty of gaps where a William Killen could fit, but not enough sources to place him.

Children of James Killen and Blanche Brice (as far as I know, mostly based on Ted Marr’s tree):

Thomas Killen (c1765-1812) m. Margaret Armstrong:
-   John c1797-1851
-   Samuel c1802-1854
-   Ellenor c1805-1871
-   (three others who died young)

John Killen (c1767-1828) m. Martha Dool
(we’ve already sort of ruled him out because his son William probably married too late to be the father of Ellen)

William Killen [unproven] (c1768-?) m. Margaret Finlay?

Edward Killen (c1773-?) ...?

James Killen (c1775-?) ...?

It doesn’t seem like anyone knows anything about Edward or James.  The William Killen who married Margaret Finlay may or may not be the William baptised son of James Killen and Blanche Brice.  Assuming he was, he might be the father or grandfather of Ellen Brice Killen...?

It’s also possible that Thomas Killen and Margaret Armstrong had another son, a William born c1800 who may have been the father of Ellen Brice Killen...?

[Gilby]

Snaptoo, I take it “Nellie” is Ellen Lempriere Deane?  Do you know if she had any family or when she died?

I’m afraid I don’t yet have much experience of tracing people in England, so probably can’t add much to what you know of your Deanes over there. 

Thanks to the link to the Wilson (etc) site – I’d forgotten about its existence. 

I’ve no objections if someone wants to split the thread by the way.

[peterjharris]

Hi, You have:

John GILBERT m. Sarah DOUGLAS
- Anne b. c1830/1835?

Now I am related by marriage to John Earls RUTHERFORD who married Sarah Francis GILBERT, hence my interest.

From the 1910 & 1920 USA census records for John & Sarah, who were living in Kings, Brooklyn, New York, an Annie PAUL, Sister in Law & Widow, born Ireland, was also living with them.  In the 1910 she was 79 & in the 1920, 87. I assume this is the Annie GILBERT son of John above.  In the 1900 USA Census, Annie (65) was shown living in New York with Husband, William PAUL age 72, born Ireland.

Regards, Peter

[Gilby]

Yea, that's Annie, daughter of John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas, and sister of Sarah Frances who married John Earls Rutherford.

I haven't done much on Sarah and John Rutherford.  They married at Holywood Church on the 18th Feb 1873.  John was from Manorhamilton (Co Leitrim), and that's where all their children appear to have been born.  Sarah is mentioned in the wills of Robert Douglas and her great aunt Mary Falloon.


This is what I have on Annie and William:

[BNL 9 Apr 1830]
At Lurgan, on the 29th ultime, the Lady of Mr. John Gilbert, of a daughter.

[BNL 20 Nov 1849]
Nov. 16, in Lurgan Church, by the Rev. CHarles Faloon, Ann, eldest daughter of John Gilbert, Esq., to Mr Wm Paul, of the firm of Paul & Co, both of Lurgan.

William Wentworth Paul went bankrupt in 1862, along with his brother John Thomas Paul.  He absconded to British Columbia (c1862) and they moved to the US in about 1870, I think (see below).

1880 US Census
William W Paul and Annie Paul living in New York City with a ?James Johnson (aged 39).  William aged 59, Annie 50.  Birth places Ireland across the board for Annie and William, which fits.  He's a clerk.

1900 US Census???
William W Paul and Annie Paul living in Manhattan, New York.  Birth places Ireland across the board, which fits.  DoBs 1828 and 1835 which is a bit out.  Immigration in 1855 which is definitely wrong.  Could be lying?  Why?  He's a clerk (dry goods).

New York Times, 18 Dec 1906:
PAUL: On Dec. 16, at his late residence, 109 West 132d St.  Funeral private.  Interment at Greenwood.

[According to the Green-Wood burial search he was buried in March 1907.  Why the delay?  Was he moved?  Buried in lot 32534 along with wife Annie (Gilbert) Paul.]

1910 US Census
Annie living in Brooklyn with Rutherfords.  Widow.  Immigration 1860.

1920 US Census
Annie living with her sister Sarah and brother-in-law John Rutherford in Brooklyn, New York in 1920.  Year of immigration to the US given as 1870.  Newspaper reports say William Wentworth Paul went to British Columbia in about 1862 - so did they live in Canada for 8 years before moving?

The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, New York, 7 Jun 1925
PAUL: Suddenly, on June 6, at her home, 231 Hancock st., in her 95th year, Annie Gilbert, widow of William Wentworth Paul.  Funeral private.


Anything else you can add?  Or anything else you'd like to know that I might know?

[shellyesq]

1900 US Census???
William W Paul and Annie Paul living in Manhattan, New York.  Birth places Ireland across the board, which fits.  DoBs 1828 and 1835 which is a bit out.  Immigration in 1855 which is definitely wrong.  Could be lying?  Why?  He's a clerk (dry goods).

It can be hard to remember the exact year of something that happened roughly 50 years earlier.  I think forgetfulness is more likely than deceit.  Also someone else might have given the information and just guessed at it.

[According to the Green-Wood burial search he was buried in March 1907.  Why the delay?  Was he moved? 

Maybe the ground was too frozen to bury him until the spring thaw.

[Gilby]

Oh, good points.  The one about the Spring thaw would never have occurred to me    Thanks

[Gilby]

Pablo, I’m afraid I’ve drawn a bit of a blank with these McAuleys.

I see James McAuley lived in ‘Ardymagh’ which I guess must be “Big Ardymagh” at the northern end of Ballynashee.  Unfortunately the Griffith’s map on Askaboutireland doesn’t have the plots numbered, but it looks like the McAuleys probably lived within a mile of my ancestor Edward Killen at Glenville, Jockeysquarter.

Pablo1, this might be relevant to your McAuley-Killen link...?  I've just found a "George MacAuley, Glenville" among a list of people granted certificates for killing game in the District of Ballymena in 1816.  I wonder if that was the same Glenville as my ancestor Edward Killen ended up living in.

[EDIT: By chance, another - Alex McAuley Esq, Glenville voted in the 1776 Antrim elections.]

I've also copied out a passage from W.D. Killen's book which explains how the Killens inherited land in Glenwherry:

Early in life, and with a very small capital, my father [John Killen] began trading on his own account.  Shortly afterwards he married Martha Dool, my mother, who was then only nineteen years of age.  She was an efficient helpmate, as she was gifted with strong common sense; and she proved an excellent housekeeper.  She was born in Duneane, where her father was a farmer; but when very young children, she and a brother, William -- after whom I was named -- were taken away to Glenwhirry, to live with two old uncles and aunts who had never married, and who had made up their minds to adopt them as their heirs.  They occupied a valuable farm in the heart of the glen, along with some hundreds of acres of mountainous land in the vicinity, all held in perpetuity at little more than a nominal rent; and all well stocked with cows and horses, bullocks and sheep.  These old people were nearly allied by birth to some of the most considerable families in adjacent parishes, and mingled freely with the gentry around them.  My mother's marriage had the sanction of her parents, who were still living; but it was by no means agreeable to her uncles in Glenwhirry.  They thought that as she was a handsome young woman, with the prospect of a comfortable dowry, she was entitled to a better match than a youth of slender means, who had recently commenced business as a grocer and seedsman in the town of Ballymena.  For some time after her marriage they utterly refused to recognise her; but when they saw that her young husband prospered in business, and that he had acquired a reputation as a person of superior intelligence, of soundmorals and sterling principle, they became more placable.  In the end my mother's children inherited all the property of their kinsmen in Glenwhirry.

I think the uncle and aunts where Millars (their sister Martha Millar having married Jesse Dool).  They, in turn, may have got the land from their mother, described in an appendix as "Martha Reid, heiress of Reidstown, Glenwherry."