Hannah Cope, nee Elk(e)s, born around 1821 in Alton

[Deirdre784]

Hi, I've come back to my search for the death of my great grandmother Hannah, following today's discovery that she is not buried with her husband .

Previous topic discussing possible deaths and 2nd marriages is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=633308.msg4840348#msg4840348

In summary, bit long but everything I know and some updates since the previous topic:
- Hannah was baptised on 29 April 1821 at St Peter's Alton, daughter of Paul and Mary Elkes. Paul was a labourer from Alton Common.
- Not sure where Hannah is in 1841. Originally thought she was in Ellastone but that appears to be a different family.
- Hannah (24) married Thomas Cope (21) in Cheadle parish church on 29 Dec 1845, father Paul (labourer), witnesses Thomas and Elizabeth Elks (Hannah's siblings). Only Thomas Cope signed his name.
- in 1851 Hannah (30) and Thomas are in Albert Place, Hanley, and have had children Elizabeth and Mary Ann. Her half brother John Elkes is living with them. 
- on 11 Nov 1860, Thomas dies aged 37, in Charles St, Hanley.
- in 1861, still in Charles St, Hannah (40) has 3 surviving children, Elizabeth (13), Mary Ann (11) and Thomas (2) and has had a new baby, William aged 2 months. Her father Paul is living with the family. Baby William died in the June quarter 1861.
- on 26 Dec 1865, eldest daughter Elizabeth (Lizzie) married Louis/Lewis Reynolds Murray in St Mary & St Patrick's Catholic church, Hanley
- in 1871, still in Charles St, Hanley, Hannah (50) and her two surviving children are living with Lizzie and her family.
- in 1881 (3 April), Hannah (age given as 70 but unlikely given her children's births up to 1861) is living in Hanover St, Hanley, with Lizzie and family. Lizzie has had 8 children, 2 have died.
- on 25 April 1881, Hannah's son Thomas married another Lizzie (Hackney), also at St Mary & St Patrick's Catholic church, Hanley.

Then Hannah disappears. In 1891 Lizzie and family are still in Hanley, but Hannah is not with them. I've been unable to find her anywhere in 1891, or 1901, nor a re-marriage for her (which sounds unlikely to me having been a widow for more than 20 years, but possible).

A kind rootschatter finally tracked down Thomas' burial, in the recently opened Hanley cemetery, on 14 Nov 1860. The record at the records office says he was in grave 76. I then found his daughter Lizzie (buried 1928) and son-in-law Louis/Lewis (buried 1929) in grave 75 - that sounded strange to be in the next grave given the years between the deaths.

I rang Carmountside crematorium today hoping that they might be able to tell me if Hannah was buried with her husband. The mystery deepened when it turned out that not only is Hannah not buried with Thomas, but that in fact Thomas is in grave 75 with daughter Lizzie and her husband. Their records have his original grave no of 75 crossed out, though there is no note to say why.

So what happened to Hannah?

The fact that she's not buried with Thomas, I guess, suggests that she may have re-married, and possibly moved away. But I can't find a marriage.

Given that Lizzie and Louis/Lewis had 15 children (5 died before the age of 3), could it be that Hannah eventually ended up in the workhouse? Are there any workhouse records available? If she died in a workhouse could she have been buried with her husband? Though that still doesn't explain why I can't find a record of her death.

This is one of a number of my family mysteries, but I had really been hoping that Hannah had been buried with her husband. That would hopefully have narrowed down the search for her death.

Apologies for the long post but it does help to get everything down in order as maybe something well jump out at someone and take me a stage closer.

Any help or suggestions welcome; thanks for reading.

Deirdre

[Milliepede]

So daughter and son in law are buried with her father.  Maybe check to see who is in grave 76.
If Hannah died after husband and before daughter then you certainly would expect her to be with husband - unless she died elsewhere in the country 

Straw clutching but maybe her parents or other family are in grave 76 and she is in with them.

Also you've probably already checked this but she might not be under Hannah but a variation of the name like Ann etc

[Deirdre784]

Hi Milliepede, thanks for your reply.

The chap at Carmountside mentioned the name today, saying grave number 76 is in the name of 'x' but I can't remember what he said, other than it didn't ring any bells. Hopefully had he said Elks I would have asked more questions, unless I was too surprised that it wasn't Cope!

Hadn't thought of Hannah being buried with her parents, but her mother died in 1824 and is buried at St Werburgh's in Kingsley. I haven't found anything on her father following the 1861 census when he was living with Hannah so will look further for him. But of course that means he was still alive when Thomas died so not sure if that helps (and wouldn't be the reason why the grave number was changed ).

Thanks for the suggestion of Ann, I'll look for that.

It just seems really strange that Hannah lived - as a widow - with her daughter and son-in-law for over 20 years but they are buried with her husband. Unless of course she caused a rift by marrying again, officially or unofficially.

Deirdre

[Deirdre784]

Back on the hunt for my great grandmother and wondering if anyone has any further suggestions as to what can have happened to her (or what / where else I can search).

- I've looked in the 1891 census for all Hannahs born Alton in 1821 +/- 10 years, and then found the marriages of the couples
- I've looked for all Hannah Cope deaths between 1881 and 1891 in Staffordshire, again born 1821 +/- 10 years, and found that Hannah in the 1881 census (and some death notices)
- I've looked at a number of Hannah Cope marriages from 1881 to 1891 in Staffordshire, but none of those appear in the 1891 with Hannah in her 60s or 70s.

Given that Hannah is not buried with her husband, the best bet would appear to be that she re-married. But was that likely in the 1880s when she would have been in her 60s and her children grown up? Or she could have moved away....

Thanks for reading.

[maggie may]

Hi Deirdre ,
              Found your notice on here and wondering have you made any progress.
If not you may like to check out a site called wishful-thinking staffordshire. People go to cemeteries and record headstones and they get recorded. I did have a quick look round the area where you have mentioned and there are few Cope's buried in Tunstall cemetery.  Not all are recorded  though so a bit of  a hit and miss. If your Hannah's husband is buried in a plot with his daughter and husband it is pretty well likely they did not have much money so they call them unmarked graves and just have a lot  number this was quite common years ago and my grandfather which  took ages to find eventually found him in one with his son inlaw and a few other people people of no connection at all. They can take up to about 12 to 15 in these sort of graves  and have no headstones on them  but  the cemetery you are searching should be able to tell you whether your Hannah is in one and how may spaces left for future  burials.  She could of gone to live with a daughter or other family member and buried with them or did get remarried but if you have searched and no record it is highly unlikely .  I think I would start with the cemeteries in the area and if you re handy call in and ask the grounds person to look it up for you as they will be able to tell you if she is in a grave in one of them and whether an unmarked one or one with a headstone. I would have a look at this site I have given you but as I said not all graves are recorded but it is a start .If you cant get to them personally drop them  aline .. Maybe you have found your Hannah but if not look at these options  Happy Hunting.
kind regards.
Maggie may.

[Deirdre784]

Hi Maggie May,

Thanks for your reply; unfortunately no I've still not found Hannah. There is no headstone on the grave where Thomas, Lizzie and Louis are buried but it is a recognised plot so am not sure that it is classed as an unmarked grave 

Unfortunately the Staffordshire burials office will only look for a burial if I know the cemetery and date of death, so it's not an option

Deirdre

[maggie may]

Hi Deirdre,
                Sorry you have still not found your Hannah . It does sound as if you have found her husbands plot along with other family members . The grave with out a headstone is either called an unmarked grave or a public grave they are both the same and I have family Buried  in Leek the same and also a grandfather in Plymouth like you could not find him so hired a researcher who did . I will attempt to add attachments so you know what I mean if I can do so . I chatted to some guy on a site who very kindly  went to the Leek cemetery for me to look these graves up . I had no idea they were unmarked at the time. He found the grounds man or what ever they are called and he took him over to the grave and he let me know that he could not take a photo as only a piece of lawn . As I said before if you want to make sure your Hannah is in this plot write to the council of this cemetery and ask the question or see if someone on the site can go to have a look for you and see if the grounds man is there as the records should be at the cemetery as well. It is frustrating trying to find it all out you would think it would be  easy  but it is not always the case. I cant get these  attachments to you they say too big grrrrrr.
Will have to try another way. maybe use johnmaggie@xtra.co.nz
Cheers Maggie.

[Deirdre784]

Hi Maggie, they have checked the plot records and Hannah is not in the grave, it is just her husband Thomas, daughter Lizzie and son in law Louis. Although there is no headstone the graves tend to be deep enough for 3 or 4 burials (I've found numerous family graves in many parts of the UK with no headstones and all have up to 4 burials, plot details even listing them as 1 of 4, 2 of 4 etc, and will indicate if there is space left).

Thanks for your interest, I need to keep looking 

Deirdre

[maggie may]

Hi Deirdre,
               At least now you know Hannah is not buried in the same plot as Thomas.
I found it interesting with my Grandfather and the letter that the cemeteries services wrote to me  they said the family have the rights for 14 years on the burial plot. Once this period expired the council reserve the right to reclaim  should there be room for further burials by a person not of the same family.
 As someone suggested Hannah could of remarried this maybe so or went to another county where she lived with family till she passed away . Maybe buried  under Elk(e)s .

Have a look at Genealogy Forum . they have changed their site a bit now but they used to have forums on surnames  could prove useful.

Cheers
Maggie