Author Topic: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels  (Read 10732 times)

Offline SmallTownGirl

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #9 on: Monday 07 April 14 17:55 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately I viewed it on FindMyPast and did not download when that was still possible.

Have you tried looking in the My Saved Records tab on your FindMyPast account to see if it's still there for viewing without using further credits?

STG
Always looking for GOODWINS in Berkshire :)

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #10 on: Monday 07 April 14 18:04 BST (UK) »
Yes I looked at my saved records, but it has a big gap from 21st March to 1st April (the day I was changed to new FindMyPast. It was in that missing 10 days. I have reported it to FindMyPast and judging from comments on other threads on Rootschat, I'm not alone in having missing searches, for the last week or twoof March. I went back to some of the census records I also viewed in that time and the images didn't have a tick by them, so if I didn't have an annual sub, I would have been charged for viewing them again. I will just have to search again. I have now found Windows snip tool, so I can copy the bit I need.
I'm getting more convinced Willesden Charles is the same as mine. There's no marriage I can find for him and Eliza. She appears as a widow in 1881 and there is actually a death of Charles in the right area and right sort of age in Q1 1877. If Eliza's age is right on 1881 census she would have been 18 when first child was born and he would almost 50!
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #11 on: Monday 07 April 14 18:08 BST (UK) »
Just seen all the information you've found on Augusta the daughter. Thanks very much, lots of details to digest. I think it must have been Ada who married a theatre manager, I think the name was Selsdon, but I've seen a website which mentions him and I think he was also known by another name. Didn't make a note but I can probably do the search again and find it
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline SmallTownGirl

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #12 on: Monday 07 April 14 19:15 BST (UK) »
Ada Amelia Sara Mary Livermore, christened 8 Sep 1848, St Peter's C of E, Liverpoool.

Ada married 27 Apr 1877 in Newcastle-upon-Tyne (this family do get around, don't they?) to Robert Marion Catcheside.

1881 Ada and Robert are in Stoke-on-Trent, where he's a "Professor of Music", b. Newcastle, and with them is 2yo Lechmere, b. Hull.

1891 Ada and Robert are in Jesmond, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where he's a "General Manager Music Something (can't quite read it)" and with them are 8yo Horace, 6yo Robert and 1yo Corbett.

Can't find them in 1901 just now, but Robert dies in 1916 in Bristol and Ada in 1919 in Bristol.  Probate for her granted to Alexander Cochran, physician and surgeon and Edith Maud Langham, spinster, who's living with them in 1891, whoever she is.

STG

Always looking for GOODWINS in Berkshire :)


Online heywood

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #13 on: Monday 07 April 14 21:10 BST (UK) »
Charles and Eliza are in Kensington in 1861 15/47/25
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 08 April 14 08:38 BST (UK) »
Thank you both for all the extra information. Now that you reminded me that Ada married a Catcherside, I've found the Catcherside website again which had some information on about the Livermores. (Don't know where Selsdon, or maybe Sheldon comes in, but I'm sure I saw it in a newspaper before all my save FindMyPast searches vanished). The Catcherside webside says Charles died 1855, but no source cited. In 1861 Charles and Eliza and family (transcribed as Levermore on FindMyPast, but should have found it, it's one of the most common errors)
But so far we have:
No marriage for Charles and Augusta (expected about 1839-41)
Charles with Augusta in 1841
Charles with Augusta in 1851
No death for Charles between 1851 and 1861 although Augusta says she is a widow in 1861 and 1871.
No marriage for Charles and Eliza (expected about 1853/4)
Charles with Eliza in 1861
Charles with Eliza in 1871
Charles death reg in Q1 1877 Fulham district, coincidentally same quarter as Augusta in Leighton Buzzard district
Eliza widow in 1881.

On all censuses Charles is a tailor or foreman tailor and is born in London anytime between 1802 and 1815.
So unless a second Charles is found in 1851 also a tailor born in London, it still looks like one Charles.
I have found Manchester rate books on FindMyPast and there are several entries for Charles in various years in the early 1840's. Looks like he moved around Manchester a bit. The earliest is in 1841, when his name has been squeezed in to the register with the the date May 1841, the tenant on line below is crossed out. So it looks like he moved into a property a month before the 1841 census, which might indicate when he and Augusta set up home together.
If he did marry Augusta and then left her, it would explain why no marriage to Eliza. But not finding a marriage to Augusta possibly indicates he was already married to someone else by 1841. His age at death indicates a year of birth as 1803 /4, he could easily have had an earlier marriage.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 05 May 15 14:05 BST (UK) »
Just found a few more interesting snippets in the mystery of what happened to Charles Livermore.

On the 1861 census Augusta (saying she is widowed) is living with her daughter Ada and sons Lechmere, Louis Napoleon, Horace William and Henry Augustus. Henry Augustus is 5, which made me think that Charles had died after about 1856.

I have just found baptism record for Horace. Although he was born in 1851 he was not baptised until 1854.
The baptism took place at Manchester Cathedral on 29 November 1854, birth 16 Aug 1851, parents "the late" Charles Livermore and Augusta Sophia, residence Manchester, Charles's occupation tailor and Draper.
I wouldn't have thought any more except that it confirmed Charles had died before Nov 1854,
but the entry immediately above for a baptism on the same day is for Henry Augustus Willym, son of Thomas Willym Beckett and Augusta Sophia, birth 21 Aug 1854, residence Manchester, father's occupation Professor of Music.
As well as no death record for Charles Livermore between 1851 and 1854, there is no marriage for a widowed Augusta Sophia and Thomas Beckett.
The closest I can get to the possible father is a Thomas W Beckett, professor of dancing, living in Gresse street St Pancras in 1861. He is 47 and has a wife Margaret aged 28. Both born in Middlesex. There is a marriage of a Thomas Willym Beckett to Margaret Victoria Grice on April 4 1859, he is a widower and music master. And in 1871 Thomas has a different wife, Alice aged 24 and he's 57, profession music master. I wonder where he was in 1851?

I suspect Augusta claimed that Charles was dead and she was now the wife of Thomas Beckett, to explain why she was bringing a three year year old son and a three month old baby to be baptised at the same time.

It still looks as if Charles and Augusta split up and Augusta had a relationship with Thomas Beckett (or because she had the relationship with him).

This family is getting even more interesting!
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline Joe Catcheside

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #16 on: Monday 15 June 15 10:56 BST (UK) »
Hi,

you need to talk to my dad!

He's behind this site: http://www.catcheside.com/

There's loads more that he's not put on the page. He is very keen on the Livermore connection, and has a fair bit on Victorian music hall, including some photos of them.

IIRC, they are mentioned in one of James Joyce's novels - the Dubliners, I think.

Robert Marium Catcheside (NOT Marion....  my dad thinks but can't prove that he was born at sea)  is my 2-greats grandfather.



Cheers!

Offline Joe Catcheside

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Re: Livermore Brothers Court Minstrels
« Reply #17 on: Monday 15 June 15 10:58 BST (UK) »
Here, for example, is a photo of the Livermore Court Minstrels from 1869, with Ada Livermore presiding:

http://catchie.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=catchie&view=62&sort=0&albumid=0&photoindex=32&rand=955630516