Slaley Marriage Look-up (BTs seem to contain error)

[Jomot]

Could someone possibly look-up a marriage at Slaley on 8th October 1808. 

The BTs show the banns as being between Margaret Winter & John Graham, but the marriage being solemnised between Margaret Winter & John Rodham: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11134-148605-25?cc=1309819&wc=9K5M-BZH:13617901,30532201,30532202

Everything points to Rodham / Roddam being correct but I'd be far happier if I could confirm that the original PRs show only the one surname.

Many thanks in advance.

[2zpool]

I have a transcript of the parish registers done by Dr. K. Mitchell and the marriage is between Margaret Winter and John Graham.  Wit:  Cuthbert Rodham  However later there are baptisms of children of John Roddam and Margaret Winter.  One I cannot find on the Bishop's transcripts but this is what it says:

Cuthbert Roddam born 10 Jan 1811, baptised 27 Jan 1811, Dukesfield, 2nd son of John Roddam, millright, son of Cuthbert Roddam, Hunstanworth, husbandman, by his wife Margaret Winter, daughter of Christopher [Winter], Dukesfield, Smelter

The mother's maiden name was put in the register up to midyear 1821

My vote is for John Roddam.

Janis

[Jomot]

I have a transcript of the parish registers done by Dr. K. Mitchell and the marriage is between Margaret Winter and John Graham.  Wit:  Cuthbert Rodham  However later there are baptisms of children of John Roddam and Margaret Winter.  One I cannot find on the Bishop's transcripts but this is what it says:

Cuthbert Roddam born 10 Jan 1811, baptised 27 Jan 1811, Dukesfield, 2nd son of John Roddam, millright, son of Cuthbert Roddam, Hunstanworth, husbandman, by his wife Margaret Winter, daughter of Christopher [Winter], Dukesfield, Smelter

The mother's maiden name was put in the register up to midyear 1821

My vote is for John Roddam.

Janis

Hi Janis, thanks for this - I couldn't find the baptism of Cuthbert on the BTs either.  It does say that they are an extract so it seems to me that the inclusion of any particular individual is a bit hit & miss, but the mention of Cuthbert being the second son is also a puzzle.

I've also found a record (but not BT) of John Rodham born 27 March 1809 & baptised 7th April, but the BTs only show a Catherine Rodham for those dates & parents (Page 85). Catherine was the name of Margaret's mother so this would make sense, but I cant find reference to that baptism anywhere else so far.  So was it John or Catherine?  Or were they twins?

This all started because I was trying to find the death of Margaret's father, Christopher.  Her marriage to John Roddam would fit nicely as a John Roddam & his wife Margaret moved to Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, which is where I also find a death of Christopher Winter born 1743, but these anomalies in the name of both the Groom and the children have got me completely puzzled.

[2zpool]

My transcript of the parish record for John Roddam:  John Roddam born 27 Mar 1809, baptised 7 Apr 1809 1st son of John Roddam, millwright, s/o Cuthbert, Hunstanworth, and Margaret Winter his wife d/o Christopher, Dukesfield, smelter

No mention of a Catherine

Christopher Winter baptised 3 Jul 1743 s/o Michael and Alice, Mid? Dukesfield

Michael Winter buried 23 Feb 1763 of Hexham

Couldn't find a burial of an Alice

Seems there are quite a few errors in copying in the BT's I think.

Janis

[Jomot]

Thanks again Janis

The Catherine / John thing is definitely odd though as the BTs definitely say Catherine, first daughter of... (the rest is the same but gives the addresses of High House & Moss House), and as mentioned, Catherine was the name of Margaret's mother so its not like its some random name plucked from nowhere.   

I've seen BTs contain errors before, but getting the name and sex of a child so completely different is something else again - not helped by the confusion over the marriage of the parents!

Think I'm going to have to see if I can order up the originals somehow as either way I'm otherwise relying on transcripts - and one or other of them is clearly wrong.

Alice was buried at Whitley Chapel in 1785 and died a pauper.

[c-side]

No need to order a copy unless you want one - I'm at the archives almost every week and happy to do look-ups.

Could you list the entries you want checked and I'll see what I can do on Wednesday

Christine

[Jomot]

Thanks Christine - you are an absolute star 

Both things I need checking are on the Slaley PR's:

1) Marriage on 8th October 1808.  The bride was definitely Margaret Winter but I need clarification of the groom as BTs show the banns (11, 18 & 25 Sept) as John Graham but the marriage as John Rodham.  Possibly just bad writing as both end in "ham" ??

2) Baptism on 7th April 1809 (edited: or possibly 16th April - another difference!).  BTs show Catherine Rodham of Slaley but other transcripts show John Rodham.  The rest should (hopefully) say 1st daughter / son of John Rodham, Cartwright, son of Cuthbert Rodham, native of High House in the parish of Hunstanworth by his wife Margaret Winter Daur of Christopher Winter, Smelter, native of Moss House in Hexhamshire.

If by any chance the correct baptism entry is for Catherine, could I be really cheeky and ask you to look for a 1810 baptism for John Rodham as there is apparently a baptism on 27 Jan 1811 for Cuthbert Rodham second son of (etc etc)

I really appreciate the help and will do my very best to 'pay it forward' 

Julie

[c-side]

There is indeed much confusion

Taking the baptism first -

1809: born March 27th, baptised April 7th

John Roddam of Bakerfield first son of Cuthb. John Roddam, Millwright and son of Cuthbert Roddam of Hunstanworth by his wife Margaret Winter daughter of Christopher Winter of Dukesfield, Smelter.

The next one is Cuthbert, second son, born Jan. 10, baptised Jan. 27 1811.  Details as above plus Cuthbert Roddam is described as a husbandman.

Then we come to the standard baptism format of 1813 but our curate has managed to combine this with the ‘Barrington’ detail by writing sideways across the columns - not easy to read!

7 March 1813 is Jane Roddam daughter of John Roddam and Margaret Winter of Dukesfield, occupation still Millwright

14 October 1814 is Elizabeth 3rd daughter of John Roddam and Margaret Winter of Dukesfield Hall, occupation now Cartwright.

Search though I did I could not find another daughter - could this be the mysterious Catherine?

And now to the marriage.

The banns and the marriage detail are part of the same document.  It starts with the customary ‘banns were called on three consecutive Sundays..etc. between John Graham and Margaret Winter’  Then in the very next sentence it declares that the marriage took place between John Rodham and Margaret Winter!

There were 5 witnesses:  Lucy Hamilton, Alexander Varman, Cuthbert Varman, Cuthbert Rodham and John Jameson.  All signed their names except Margaret but the surname Varman is open to argument as in neither case could I be certain - that’s my best estimate.

Over to you…

Christine

[Jomot]

Christine,

Thank you so much for this look-up, although at the moment I'm still as confused as ever.  The BT for "Catherine" certainly introduces some detail that fits with Christopher Winter ("of Moss House"), so I still cant rule it out entirely, but the confirmation of Cuthbert being 'second son' means I cant rule John out either.   And as for the Banns & the Marriage, well......... 

I think perhaps this particular parish priest was either tipsy, scatter-brained, or both! 

Oh well, some serious additional research ahead methinks 

Thank you once again though - very much appreciated.

Julie