Naval uniform: WWI or WWII and details?

[bibliotaphist]

Hi all.

According to Rank and badges in the Navy, Army, R.A.F. and Auxiliaries: a fully coloured guide to the badges worn by members of Her Majesty's Forces (E. C. Talbot-Booth, editor, 1943), the badge on the arm of this person's uniform is that of a "Chief P. O. [Petty Officer] Artisan".

Three questions:

• What might a "Chief P. O. Artisan" have done?
• Is this uniform from WWI or (as I suspect) WWII?
• Can I learn anything else from the uniform? It seems fairly lacking in any other detail.

There seems to be something written in the bottom r.h. corner of the picture, but I can't make it out.

Many thanks,

Paul

[fiddlerslass]

Hi,
 WW2 photo.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aaRN-PayTables00Ranks-Badges.htm

see Naval  Ratings halfway down the page, the crossed ax and hammer with star indicate 4th class or above and he could have been a shipwright or Artisan (plumber, painer, cooper, joiner) or a blacksmith.

[bibliotaphist]

Thank you, fiddlerslass.

That gives me some clues to try and start to work out who this person in the photo might be.

[bibliotaphist]

I now believe that this is a photo of Arthur SPICER, born September 1920 in Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, died June 1999 in Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada.

[cpercival]

With a branch badge on his arm he would have been a Petty Officer.  Chief Petty Officers wore their specialist badges on their lapels.  Also he would not have been an Artificer as they did not wear specialist trade badges.

C

[bibliotaphist]

With a branch badge on his arm he would have been a Petty Officer.  Chief Petty Officers wore their specialist badges on their lapels.  Also he would not have been an Artificer as they did not wear specialist trade badges.

C

Thank you cpercival.

[cpercival]

Done a bit more digging and may stand corrected. Depending on when he served he was probably a shipwright 2nd 3rd or 4th class.  All wore that badge on their sleeve until about 1948.  1st class would have been a CPO and would have had lapel badges.  2nd and 3rd class were Petty Officers and maybe 4th class as well (not sure on that score) all had the crossed axes with star above.  Acting 4th class had no star.  You could try contacting the Fisgard Association (www.thefisgardassociation.org) There are still a few ex apprentices around from that era who will have personal knowledge of shipwright history during and post WWII. A pity we cannot see the rest of him or a cap badge, that would have narrowed the options.

C

[bibliotaphist]

Done a bit more digging and may stand corrected. Depending on when he served he was probably a shipwright 2nd 3rd or 4th class.  All wore that badge on their sleeve until about 1948.  1st class would have been a CPO and would have had lapel badges.  2nd and 3rd class were Petty Officers and maybe 4th class as well (not sure on that score) all had the crossed axes with star above.  Acting 4th class had no star.  You could try contacting the Fisgard Association (www.thefisgardassociation.org) There are still a few ex apprentices around from that era who will have personal knowledge of shipwright history during and post WWII. A pity we cannot see the rest of him or a cap badge, that would have narrowed the options.

C

Hello cpercival and thank you again for all the detail, especially thanks for taking the time to dig out the specifics of different classes and the uniform differences.

Here is another photo of the same individual with - hopefully  - a little bit more detail visible. Whether this photo was taken at the same time as the first one I don't know.

I can't make out any lapel badges on either photo.

[cpercival]

That second picture helps a lot. The single anchor on his left arm and the crossed axes on his right without the star above mark him as an acting 4th class shipwright.  This was later recategorised as 5th class and was the rate at which he passed out of apprentice training to join the fleet.  The cap badge would have been all red embroidered with no metal wire anchor or circle around it or colour on the crown.  This picture was therefore taken earlier than the first as the star over the axes on the previous picture meant he was by then a full 4th, 3rd or 2nd class shipwright.  I've learned something here as by my time as an Artificer (although I wasn't a shipwright) in the 1960s as I said before Artificers of all trades and classes no longer wore branch badges at all.  I was unaware that they ever had.  He would only have lapel, or more strictly jacket collar, badges as a Chief Petty Officer 1st class shipwright or as a Chief shipwright with a crown above the axes.  As a 2nd, 3rd or 4th class he would have been a Petty Officer with crossed anchors on his left arm, branch badge on his right arm with a star above and a prettier cap badge.

Clive