The Gilberts of Southwark

[Greaves]

James Gilbert (1797-1845) and Frances FAVEL (c1799-1871) were married at Kensington in 1818. As far as I know they had 7 children: Susannah (b1819), Eliza Caroline (b1821), Sophia (b1823), Sarah (b1825), Mary Ann (b1834), James (b c1837) and William (b c1841). I am confident about the dates for the first five, as I have baptismal records. I am far less certain about James and William, as I have no records of their births, except for indications on census returns.

I have a number of problems, which I would welcome help with:

(1) Eliza Caroline simply disappears from records after 1851, at which time aged 29 she was a seamstress living with her widowed mother at St Georges Place, Southwark. I can't find any marriage or record of death.

(2) Sarah marries George LAWRANCE (sp) in 1847 at Lambeth. In 1861 and 1871, the couple appear to be living in Waltham Holy Cross, but after that disappear from the records. I cannot find a record of death for Sarah.

(3) Mary Ann again simply disappears from the records after 1851, at which time aged 16 she was a seamstress living with her widowed mother at St Georges Place, Southwark. I can't find any marriage or record of death.

(4) James poses the opposite problem. Whilst I can find records of his two marriages and subsequent death, I can find no record of his birth, neither a baptism nor a BMD entry.

(5) William is a total mystery. In 1861, aged 19  he is a lawyer's clerk and is living with his widowed mother (now Frances Britton following a second bereavement). After that I can find nothing.

All help very gratefully received.

[groom]

Have you checked out the 3 marriages of Eliza Gilberts in Camberwell between 1851 and 1861?
Sept q 1851, Sept q1859 and Dec q 1859.

[ciderdrinker]

Hi
William seems to have joined the Army
1901 Maydwell St Camberwell
William Gilbert 65 army pensioer retired Bermondsey
Annie 45 Ireland
Mary Holland 25 married daughter Ireland
Harriet Gilbert 19 daughter Ireland
Pheobe 13
Joseph 11
John 9
Annie Holland granddaughter 5 Ireland
Harriet same 3
Julia 1 same

Possible marriage 23.12 1854 St Mary Lambeth
Jonathan Emmett horse keeper s of William labourer
Mary Ann Gilbert d of James gardener
Both Mead Row.

Ciderdrinker

[Greaves]

With regard to the three Camberwell marriages for Eliza, two (Q3 1851 and Q4 1859) are definitely wrong as they list the wrong father. The second is possible.

The find for William in 1901 looks very possible, as the birthplace is certainly correct. The only problem is that although the age on Ancestry states 60, FindMyPast and the actual document state 65, which gives a birthdate of 1836 which is is too young.

Many thanks.

Any more help gratefully received.

[rosie17]

Don't know if you have a death for Sarah's husband George this looks like him in the probate records
George Lawrance of Waltham Abbey County of Essex ( plumber ) who died 5/4/1868 at Waltham Abbey aforesaid was proved at the principal registry by the oaths of Sarah Lawrance of Waltham Abbey aforesaid widow the relict ( during widowhood ) and William Gardener of Waltham Abbey aforesaid builder the executor
Effects under £5.000

[rosie17]

Is this Sarah in the 1871 census living Greenfield Street Waltham Holy Cross head ...widow ..annuitant age 44
Mary Ann Chater b1839 Hatfield Hertfordshire unmarried age 32 owner of house property

[Greaves]

I think Sarah was living in Waltham Abbey in 1871.

Interestingly, two of the children seem to have ended up in Waltham Abbey. Apart from the 1871 reference for Sarah (RG10 1346 49 28) and a similar one for 1881 (RG11 1396 122 2), there is a possible reference in 1891 for Sophia (RG12 1090 13 20). I think in 1871 Sophia is still in Southwark (RG10 616 114 7).

Whether these refer to the family I am researching, I am not sure, but it is interesting that they both might have ended up in the same area.

Clarification would be helpful.

[MaureeninNY]

There does seem to be quite a gap (looking at the 1841 census) in children. William is 9 weeks old.

Not really unusual,I suppose-just worth noting.

Maureen

[rosie17]

Going by the marriage record for Sarah and George Lawrance his occupation is plumber the same as it is on the 1861 census which would make me think that the death in 1869 is the same George