The Gilberts of Southwark

[rosie17]

Eliza is not showing up on any other census forms tried all different variations of the name searched with just first names  Not finding a marriage either they are a hard family to trace

[Greaves]

As far as Eliza is concerned, I have her for 1841 and 1851. So if the 1858 death is correct, it would make sense that she doesn't appear in any other censuses. Your failure to find her in any post 1851 census or a marriage, lends weight to the 1858 death.

Another challenge is her brother James (b c1837) who marries Emma Frances Martin in 1859 in Edmonton. Following her early death in 1861, he marries Harriet MARDELL in 1864 in Hackney. The family settle in the Edmonton/Tottenham area. The puzzle with James is twofold: (1) there is no record of his birth, unlike all his earlier siblings who were baptised, (2) he disappears from the 1861 census in the wake of his first wife's death. Whilst he is named on Emma's death certificate as the widowed husband, it is her mother who is the informant rather than him.

And as I said her youngest brother, William is a real mystery. He may have joined the military as suggested earlier, though I am not sure how to prove whether this is correct or not.

[rosie17]

I don't think that is your William ( soldier ) there appears to be 2 William Gilberts born 1841 Bermondsey  1 William J Gilbert on the 1861 census is at Winchester barracks .And your William is with his mother Frances
Is this the daughter of James and Emma ...Emma R Gilbert born 1860 she is a nurse child with a Mary Ann Doyle age 40 born Dublin ? like you not seeing James in 1861

[Greaves]

Rosie17 - where can I find the details for Emma?

As far as I know, James and Emma did not have any children.

James did have a daughter called Emma Mardell, born Dec 1861 to his second wife Harriet. Actually, I can't day she was James' daughter, as there is no father on the birth certificate.

[rosie17]

Hi I seen a daughter on a family tree ( Emma Gilbert) b 1861 Edmonton ...assuming that was  her mother Emma Francis Martin who had died 1861 seeing as James and Harriet did not marry till 1864   ....and Emma b 1861 is not with James and Harriet on the 1871 census 

[Greaves]

No - that is Emma Mardell. She was living with her grandmother in 1871, under the name Mardell, but by 1881 she is back with her mother using the name Gilbert.

Like you, I also originally thought it was Emma's daughter, but I couldn't find a birth certificate under the name of Gilbert or Martin. I eventually found one under the name MARDELL. So Emma - as her birth certificate shows - is definitely Harriet's daughter, though whether James is her father is a very debatable question. She certainly named him as her father when she married in 1888, but I'm inclined to think that this was a convenience and that we will never know her real father.