Passengers to New Zealand

[Ashnz]

A lot of the information I have is word-of-mouth from my ancestors - so I think it is quite possible that when they said Anna Maria Madsen was born in Copenhagen could be false.
But on Anna Maria Madsen's marriage certificate it does say her father was Hans Christian Madsen; a school-master and her mother was Kirsten Maria Christensen.

It has been speculated by members of the family that Anne and Anna came out with 2 sisters and a brother. But I myself have never been able to verify this.

Do you think Anna and Anne mentioned in FamilySearch are the correct and that they were from Bromdum and not Copenhagen?

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hi again...

her father was Hans Christian Madsen, a school-master

The Hans Christian MADSEN I mentioned is listed in the 1850 and 1870 censuses as a Vinterlærer which translates as a "Winter Teacher". Back then children only used to go to school in the winter.

1850 Census
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7281164

1860 Census (top of right-hand page)
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1174/census1860/opslag6734887

1870 census (top of left-hand page)
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1174/census1870/opslag9124454

There's no mention of Anna Marie in the 1860 census. Not sure where she was. Maybe an enumerator error as she is listed in the 1870 census.

There's no mention of Anna Magrethe in the 1870 census. She is listed in the "Person Register" as departing the parish in 1867 (which doesn't mean departing the country... just departing the parish... although that doesn't mean she didn't depart the country :-)

Their father Hans drowned in December 1875. Reasonably sure it's the right person as his place of birth is "Føvling Sogn" which tallies with the censuses. And his father's name is given which ties in with the 22 Sep 1816 Føvling birth to Mads BENDIXEN and Ane Marie  FILIPSDATTER(?).

Hans Cristian, son of Mads - 1816 birth
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1155/churchbook/source141563/opslag15701678

(The following Death Register scan isn't very good but it's just one click away. The "Brøndum (Ny udgave)" scan at Danish Archives is much better but there are lots of hoops to jump through to view it. Happy to supply hoops if you want.)

Hans Christian MADSEN - 1875 death
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1174/churchbook/source3357/opslag1679615

And for the record...

Entry No.10
8 Nov 1844
Marriage of Hans Christian MADSEN to Kirsten Maria CHRISTIANSDATTER
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1155/churchbook/source140387/opslag15492229

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they said Anna Maria Madsen was born in Copenhagen

Maybe she departed from Copenhagen, although you'd expect there to be a record on the Danish Emigration database. If there is, I can't find it.

So possibly you should be looking at the Hamburg -> UK -> NZ ships.

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[...] on Anna Maria Madsen's marriage certificate it says [...]

Does it give a place of birth apart from Denmark.

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Do you think the Anna and Anne mentioned in FamilySearch are correct and that they were from Bromdum and not Copenhagen?

Absolutely

...until I'm proven wrong

Regards
Beg

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hi again...

Do you have the death certificate for Anna Magrethe KROSP m.s MADSEN.

As her executor was Jens Peter PREBENSEN (her brother-in-law? - nope ... he died in 1897) it might mean her sister Anna Marie PREBENSEN m.s MADSEN (your g-g-grandmother) was able to supply the place and date of the KROSP/MADSEN marriage. If the marriage was in Denmark it would give one end of a timeframe for Anna Magrethe's arrival to NZ, the other end being the 1877 NZ birth of her child.

BDM NZ - Deaths
1902/1454 - KROSP, Margaret - 50 years - d.o.d 26 Oct 1901

Must admit it doesn't look promising as they have her name wrong.

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Anne and Anna came out with 2 sisters and a brother.

Is the brother Mads Christian MADSEN.

There is a Mads Christian MADSEN who died in Masterton in 1923. He has a birth year of 1847-ish which ties in pretty well with Anna Magrethe and Anna Marie's older brother Mads Christian MADSEN. He was born 13 Aug 1846 in Føvling in the county of Ribe. 

Entry No.10
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1155/churchbook/source140387/opslag15492164

The Mads Christian MADSEN who died in 1923 had a daughter Kristine Maria MADSEN, the same-ish given names as your g-g-g-grandmother Kirstine Maria MADSEN m.s CHRISTENSEN. I can't see a birth for her on BDM NZ but her husband William Edward NIELSEN is an executor of her father's will.

She is possibly the Christina Marie NEILSEN aged 81 years d.1956 buried in Masterton. Will need to check NZSG Cemetery fiche G03.07 to be sure. Presumably she will be buried with her husband, William Edward NEILSEN aged 85 years d.1958

Will of Mads Christian MADSEN
http://tinyurl.com/mu7y7qh

(N.B - Varde, mentioned in the affidavit, is about thirty miles north of Føvling. There is no Mads Christian MADSEN born in Varde in the 1846-47 time period so my money is on the affidavit, sworn nearly eighty years after the fact, being wrong.)

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And I see Mauriceville gets a mention. There is a book available in lots of libraries which mentions many of the Mauriceville families. Maybe the MADSEN family are included. Worth a look-up.

Forest Homes ; the story of the Scandinavian settlements in the Forty Mile Bush, New Zealand.
Author: George Conrad PETERSEN

Regards
Beg

[Ashnz]

Wow all that information is amazing . I unfortunately do not have a death certificate for Anne Margarethe Krosp, but I believe when she died in 1901 my great grandfather Jens Peter Prebensen (Peter) shortly after purchased the farm from her husband Hans.

[Beg Clonrode...]

Wow all that information is amazing

Hi again...

Don't forget it's all just speculation and I've no proof of any connections. Plus you're not really any closer to answering your original question, namely when did your g-g-grandmother arrive in NZ.

Having said that, the above Mads Christian MADSEN d.1923 is mentioned in the St Matthew's Church burial register held at the Wairarapa Archives (opposite Masterton Library). With any luck the Register will have the information supplied on his death certificate, including the names of his parents and his date/place of marriage. Hopefully his parents and your g-g-g-grandparents are one and the same so his marriage might help give a migration timeframe.

Maybe start a new thread asking for a Wairarapa Archives look-up. Not sure if we have any Mastertonians on the board but no harm in asking.

Maybe include a lookup of Mads' wife Hedevig d.1926, also in the burial register.

Here's a very slow connection to the...

St Matthew's Church: Burial register
http://masterton.spydus.co.nz/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/ENQ/OPAC/ARCENQ?RNI=533280

Maybe also see if the Christian MADSEN fl.1883 mentioned in the marriage register is one of the family.

St Matthew's Church: Marriage register
http://masterton.spydus.co.nz/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/ENQ/OPAC/ARCENQ?RNI=562857

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If it's of any interest, I'm reasonably sure Mads' g-grandson is on facebook. Happy to PM you his details. Maybe he or someone in his family has an interest in genealogy.

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Was looking through the "Parishoners - Arriving and Departing" register for Brøndum parish. Your g-g-grandmother applies for a "Leaving Certificate" on 6 Nov 1873 and heads off to Torstrup parish, arriving there on 24 Dec 1873. There's no sign of her leaving Torstrup up to the end of the register (May 1875)... which doesn't really signify anything :-) Just thought you might be interested in the fact that she had left home by the age of 16. Her older brother Christian had actually left home by 14. Different times.

Pretty sure it's the right Anna Marie MADSEN as the "57 - 48" mentioned in the Brøndum entry relates to her "Person Register" entry.

Not sure why there are no later registers than 1875. Definitely a nuisance.

Brøndum parish - 6 Nov 1873
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1174/churchbook/source140198/opslag15462495

Torstrup parish - 24 Dec 1873
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1219/churchbook/source137006/opslag14906587

Regards
Beg

[Ashnz]

Hi Beg,

I found this naturalisation article in the newspaper: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18840704.2.10&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----0Mads+Christian+madsen-- It has Mads Christian Madsen and Hans Jessen Krosp (Anna Marie Madsen's and Anne Margareth Madsen's husband). Would I be making a fair assessment that they immigrated at about the same time?

Cheers

Ashley

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hi again...

All it really means is that they applied to be naturalised at about the same time. It doesn't really relate to migration, not that it means they didn't migrate together.

If you want you could ask for a Wellington Archives look-up of their naturalisation applications (Memorial for Naturalisation). It may give a clue as to when they arrived, maybe even a specific date.... (yeah right)

From the Archives NZ naturalisation fact sheet...

"Applicants submitted a 'memorial' or application for naturalisation, usually giving name, age, birthplace, residence, occupation and length of residence in New Zealand".
http://archives.govt.nz/research/guides/citizenship#naturulisation

From: Mads Christian Madsen, Carterton - Labourer, Denmark
Date: 23 May 1884
Subject: Memorial for naturalisation
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24412549

From: Hens Jessen Krosp, Carterton - Farmer, Germany
Date: 23 May 1884
Subject: Memorial for naturalisation
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24412539

I have a feeling ancestry.com have digitised some of the NZ naturalisation records. Not sure what they contain. May be worth a look.

Regards
Beg

[Ashnz]

Hi

I looked up Hans Jessen Krosp's Naturalisation record on Ancestry and it is quite specific that he was born in Schleswig, Germany. So that is great news, as hopefully when they digitize Mads Christian Madsen's, it will show where he was born and provide a definate link.

Cheers

Ash

[Beg Clonrode...]

...it will show where he was born and provide a definite link.

Hi again...

Nope

Naturalisation applications are mainly secondary resources. They only show where Mads and Hans believe they were born. A naturalisation application is only a primary resource for things that occur at the time of applying for naturalisation, e.g current place of residence.

Would be nice if the application tallies with the birth record found earlier but I have a feeling this Mads believes he was born in Varde, which may well be the case and the Føvling birth record I found earlier is for a different Mads.

Did ancestry mention the length of residence. If not, it would still be handy to have a look at the originals, if you can.

Or maybe send an email to Wairarapa Archives to see if they have any volunteer genies who can look up Mads on the death register. Although death info is the least reliable info it may mention his parents' names. Any indication you're on the right track would be handy.

Regards
Beg