Author Topic: Newtownards/BallyBlack Paisleys  (Read 8618 times)

Offline Carolynxyz

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Newtownards/BallyBlack Paisleys
« on: Monday 15 June 15 07:19 BST (UK) »
Hello,
Could anyone please tell me which church Kilmood Presbyterians would likely have attended between c 1800-1850?  I can't find any reference to there being a Presbyterian church in Kilmood itself, although Presbyterians apparently formed about 83% of the Kilmood population.  I have a James Paisley, farmer of Drumhirk, Kilmood, for whom probate was granted in 1837, and wondered where he might be buried.  Would Presbyterians be buried in a Church of Ireland graveyard?  I also have a William Paisley of Drumhirk who was granted a license for a fowling piece between 1832-6, and my David Paisley and Agnes Gamble, who married in December 1846 at the Newtownards register office, were both said to be of Drumhirk.  Unfortunately, his marriage certificate says his father is unknown, so I suspect he was illegitimate.  He was apparently born c 1822.  If anyone can suggest where I might start looking, I'd be very grateful.
Thanks, Carolyn

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #1 on: Monday 15 June 15 08:01 BST (UK) »
Map showing Drumhirk-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/MAPS/TullynakillKilmoodTownlands.htm

Starting with burials-
Many Presbyterians were buried in C. of I. ground- here's a bit about Kilmood-
http://historyfromheadstones.com/index.php?displaygraveyardinfo&graveyard_name=Kilmood%20CI
the map shows its location-
http://historyfromheadstones.com/index.php?down&denomination=CI

The nearby Presbyterian churches are Ballygowan, Killinchy and Ballymacashen Reformed Presbyterian (under other)
http://historyfromheadstones.com/index.php?down

Early marriages, especially in the early years of registration, often didn't have a father's name down but this could mean that he was deceased or the minister simply didn't record the details.

Killinchy records start 1812-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/PHOTOSwords/KillinchyAll.htm
Ballygowan from 1860-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/PHOTOSwords/BallygowanAll.htm

Not sure if there are any other Presbyterian churches in the area but if there are I'm sure someone else will be able to provide details.
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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #2 on: Monday 15 June 15 18:01 BST (UK) »
You have done well. About 1829 there are no Paisley in http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/down/tithe-applotment-books/kilmood-parish.php#.VX762EuDoYU or indeed Killinchy or in the only townland listed online Ballyskeaugh in Newtownards parish or Tullynakill One might be wise to check if PRONI has other townlands in that series for Newtownards I was about to give up and fell upon
http://www.newtownards.info/family-paisley.htm
Which mentions your David and Agnes
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Offline Carolynxyz

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 16 June 15 00:04 BST (UK) »
Thank you both for being so helpful.  The tithe applotments are particularly useful, for the fact that no Paisley is shown (and as a farmer, I would expect James to be) suggests that perhaps the Paisleys came into the parish from somewhere else after about 1830.  This is one more piece of evidence which points me towards Newtownards, particularly the Ballyblack Paisleys, who were also farmers ad who feature on Beattie's Newtownards website (I wish the sources were given!)  The names David and James crop up there several times.  It's not been sitting right with me that my David is described as a hosier, which I would associate more with Newtownards than with Drumhirk.  I also know that David was brought out to Durham in England by the Marquis of Londonderry, after he married the heiress to many of the Durham coal pits, and I have read that Londonderry relocated some of his tenants to the Durham pits during the famine.  So it would make more sense that David was living in Newtownards and was a tenant of Londonderry, rather than Drumhirk, where Lord Dufferin was the main landowner.  David's marriage certificate states "father unknown" whereas Agnes' father is named as John Gamble, labourer, so I think the registrar would have recorded David's father had he known it.  There is a Susanna Paisley who married a Drumhirk man, John Whitlaw or Whitla, and had two daughters by him in 1834 and 1841.  I am now speculating that she was perhaps originally married to William Paisley, the gun license holder, that he died when David was only about 10, so David didn't know his name.  Perhaps Susanna was dead by the time of David's marriage in 1846 so she couldn't tell him.  I note that David' second daughter is named Susanna, and third daughter Agnes, suggesting they used the traditional naming pattern.  In addition, some of the Ballyblack Paisleys emigrated to Pittsburgh, and David's son Hugh also gave this a try in 1880, also to Pittsburgh.  This is the scenario I am going to work with, I think.

I see that the graveyard site says that all the pre-1865  Kilmood gravestones have been copied.  Do either of you know where I could get a list of these?  I'd like to see if it includes James 1837.  I have also been told that the early Ballyblack Paisleys might be associated with the Millisle Presbyterian church, so I need to try and track those registers down.  Unfortunately, they are not on Familysearch (Killinchy is, but there is no sign of any Paisleys.)  I think Millisle and 1st Presbyterian Newtownards might be my best bet now.

Once again, thank you very much for your help.  I'm an experienced genealogist, but in England, not Northern Ireland, where I am a complete beginner, so all help is gratefully received.
Carolyn


Offline aghadowey

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 16 June 15 08:36 BST (UK) »
It sounds as those the pre-1865 inscriptions for Kilmood might be available on History from Headstones own site.

Also possible they are listed in one of the volumes of Gravestone Inscriptions mentioned here-
http://www.proni.gov.uk/no.21_-_gravestone_inscriptions__83kb_.pdf
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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 16 June 15 09:24 BST (UK) »
Apart from the list of extinct church records in PRONI's online guide to Church records, I find Ros Davies is my favourite because she lists other possible sources so
 Kilmood you could email Ros Davies website contact changing the at to the symbol
daviesmarneratgmail.com, and she will look up UHF Vol 5, heres what she says
Kilmood now amalgamated with Killinchy Church of Ireland;
St Mary's   in Church St, Kilmood townland; on the north side of the Ballygowan /Killinchy road; click here for a photo and more information   ie burial registers from 1793;other records from 1822, graveyard attached, gravestone inscriptions UHF Vol 5; oldest stone 1669; email me for a gravestone look-up.
Kilmood   Presbyterian- Non Subscribing   in Ballyministragh townland; called Killinchy Non Subscribing Presbyterian; foundation stone 14 Jun 1845; the church was built in 1846 and the earliest date of death on any stone is 1849; graveyard attached; gravestones UHF Vol 5; email me for a gravestone look-up   DR; GIC

You also mention Millisle  Ros Davies offers lookups for Vols 15 and 16
Millisle Presbyterian Church 
17 Ballywalter Rd, Millisle village, Ballymacruise townland The original meeting house was built in 1773 etcetc.records from 1773; baptisms from 1773 , marriages from 1838; gravestone inscriptions available UHF Vol 16, oldest stone 1850; photo in Vol 16; email me for a gravestone look-up; also try http://www.bangor.homecall.co.uk/index.htm
For gravestone photos try http://www.graves1.homecall.co.uk/Millisle/FrameSet.htm
Millisle Seceeders Presbyterian Church 
in the village in Ballycopeland townland
The congregation was organised in 1773.......
until 1845 was Rev. Samuel James Moore .
North of Ireland FHS (www.nifhs.org) has baptisms1773 -1930 & marriages 1838 -1936; the Presbyterian Historical Society has Baptisms, 1773–1818 ( http://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com/index.php?id=44) ; graveyard attached; gravestone inscriptions available UHF Vol 15, oldest stone 1847; email me for a gravestone look-up; also try http://www.bangor.homecall.co.uk/index.htm
For gravestone photos try- http://www.graves.homecall.co.uk/Ballycopeland/index.htm

I am sure you know about The early Durham record for David Paisley b 1823 Ireland married > 1848 Agnes nee XXXX b 1829 Ireland start in the English Census 1851 where they lived in Moorsley, High Moorsley, Registration District Houghton Le Spring in North Durham with their  3 year old child born in England. As you said we are in the great famine times [There was a John Paisley born 1838 reg Gateshead some 12 north with no connections shown on freebmds but it made me blink in case.]  I agree with your Londonderry coal-mining thinking.
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Offline whiteout7

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 16 June 15 11:27 BST (UK) »
Paisleys in the Freeholder Records  There are a Hugh, James and John Paisley in Ballyblack (Co. Down), a John Paisley in Whitespots (Co. Down), a John Paisley in Ringbane (Co. Down), a Robert Paisley in Currard (Co. Fermanagh), a William Paisley in Ballywitticock (Co. Down), and a William Paisley in Creemore (Co. Armagh).

If it helps at all
http://apps.proni.gov.uk/FreeHolders/Default.aspx

If the Ballyblack Paisleys had a Hugh and your line had a Hugh, I would be very suspicious that they are close relatives
Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 16 June 15 13:37 BST (UK) »
You've probably already come across this page for Ballyblack (Paisleys mentioned) but just in case it's new-
http://www.newtownards.info/townland-ballyblack.htm
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Offline Carolynxyz

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Re: Kilmood
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 17 June 15 05:53 BST (UK) »
What helpful people on this list!  Thank you for the tips.  Actually, I spotted the freeholders database yesterday and had noted the Ballyblack tenants.  A lot more has come online since I took a brief look many years ago, and I feel more confident I might make a bit more progress this time around.  I have also joined the NIFHS, which offers free look-ups to its members, so I'm hoping that might be revealing too.  The occurrence of the names David, Hugh and Samuel in David and Agnes' children have me almost certain of a connection to the Ballyblack/Newtownards Paisleys, so I'm hoping that scrutiny of them will produce clues.  Something is telling me to get the marriage certificate for Hugh Paisley and Eliza McMillan (Bangor Dec 1846) which was only 8 days before David married, and perhaps that will yield a nice surprise!  And in case anyone is interested, there is a great Google book online called Rebels and Revivals, which is about the emigration of Ulster Presbyterians to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but it describes in great detail the nature of 18th and 19th century Presbyterian Ulster and shows why so many were keen to emigrate. 

Thanks again for the help.  If any more ideas spring to mind, I will gladly listen to them.  Is it possible to order Northern Ireland civil registration certificates online, as in England, or do we have to do it the old-fashioned way? !
Carolyn