Edinburgh Castle Garison 1888-1900

[IMBER]

An Elizabeth Margaret Scougall was born in Edinburgh in 1898. For the full details of that birth and for searching Scottish records generally you need to use:

www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Imber

[Forfarian]

From FreeCEN, there are several Archibald Patterson Scougals in the England and Wales indexes
1. Born Berwick upon Tweed, 1868
2. Born South Shields, 1890
3. Married Newcastle on Tyne, 1896, possible wives Margaret Ann Chambers and Agnes Hume
4. Born South Shields, 1900
and Archibald P Scougals
5. Died Newcastle on Tyne 1901 aged 73
6. Died Sedgfield 1912, aged 43
7. Married Newcastle on Tyne, 1913, wife Elizabeth Cavanagh
8. Married Newcastle on Tyne, 1921, wife Elizabeth Bright
9. Died Newcastle on Tyne, 1927, aged 37
10. Married Newcastle on Tyne, 1929, wife Norah Thompson
11. Born Newcastle on Tyne, 1930, mother Thompson
12. Died Newcastle on Tyne, 1935, aged 35
13. Married Newcastle on Tyne, 1952, wife Veitch

After a bit of a sort out, this is what it looks like

5. Died Newcastle on Tyne 1901 aged 73 (born 1827/8)

1. Born Berwick upon Tweed, 1868
3. Married Newcastle on Tyne, 1896, possible wives Margaret Ann Chambers and Agnes Hume
6. Died Sedgfield 1912, aged 43
This looks like your one.

2. Born South Shields, 1890
9. Died Newcastle on Tyne, 1927, aged 37

4. Born South Shields, 1900
12. Died Newcastle on Tyne, 1935, aged 35

As to which one married whom after 1911, I am not speculating.

Turning to the census
1881, at Tweedmouth: Archibald, 54, woodyard foreman, born Scotland; wife Margaret, 53, born Scotland; children David, 15; Archibald, 12; Agnes, 10; all born Tweedmouth

1891, Tweedmouth: Archibald, 64; wife Margaret, 63; daughter Agnes, 20. Birthplaces as before.

1901, Westgate, Newcastle: David, 35, bar manager, born Tweedmouth; wife Elizabeth, 35, born Edinburgh; children Archibald P, 11; Elizabeth Jane, 8; Agnes C, 6; Margaret N, 4; Charlotte, 2; David, 1. Two born in South Shields, the rest in Newcastle

1911, Newcastle: Elizabeth, 45, widow; Archibald, 20; Elizabeth, 18; Agnes, 16; Margaret, 14; Charlotte, 12; David, 11. Birthplaces as before.

1911, Sedgfield: Archie Patterson, widower, 42, labourer, born Tweedmouth; Archie Patterson Jr, 11, boarding in household of Hannah Scott.

1911, Dudley: Margaret Scougal widow, 27, born Norwich; Winifred, 8, born Edinburgh Barracks.

So did Archie and Margaret agree to go their separate ways, each claiming to be widowed?

There are too many Winifreds born in Edinburgh 1902-1903 to look them all up online, so unless someone has a clue what name she might have been registered under, the only way to look them up would be if someone is going to be in the SP centre.

[isobelw]

Is your gran the Margaret W W P S Cutler who married in 1919? If so the her death certificate indicates that she was born in 1902.
According to various trees on Ancestry Margaret Ann Chambers wife of Archibald P Scougal was born in 1871 in Tyne Dock Durham, daughter of John Chambers and Elizabeth A Chambers. This is very much at variance with the details of the Margaret who appears in the 1901 census in Edinburgh age 23 and the 1911 for Dudley where Margaret is age 27 and born in Norwich.
Archibald Patterson Scougal born 1868 in Tweedmouth joined the Highland Light Infantry in Nov 1886. He said he was 19 years and 11 months but that would appear to be untrue. His next of kin was his father Archibald Scougal of Well Road, Tweedmouth. Archibald had previously served for a short time in the Borders regt but had bought himself out (Chelsea Pensioner records on Ancestry). He served his full 12 years with the Highland Light being discharged on 17th Nov 1898. He was in Ireland for the first two years and then in India from 1888 to 1894 before returning to the UK where he remained until he was discharged. It is likely that he was called up again to serve in the army when the Boer War broke out as this was a condition he agreed to when he attested in 1886.
Familysearch has copies of the South African birth registrations of a couple of the Pigford children ( 1911 census). Their father was John Pigford and he appears to have been a policeman in SA. Catherine returned to SA as the birth of another son was recorded there in 1912.
I can find absolutely no sign of a possible Margaret, Margaret Winifred or Winifred birth in the Scottish records.
Isobel

[Forfarian]

I can't remember when English marriage certificates start to tell you the couple's ages instead of just 'full age' or 'minor'. Is it worth getting the 1896 marriage certificate to see how old Margaret said she was, and what she said her father's name and occupation were?

Is there actually any evidence to prove that the 23-year-old Margaret in 1901 is in fact the 27-year-old in 1911?

[CUMBERLAND SAUSAGE]

Isobelw
In reply to your comments:
Yes Margaret W W P S Cutler (born 4 April 1902) who married in 1919? If so then her death certificate indicates that she was born in 1902. Somewhere along the line Cutter has been wrongly spelled out as Cutler.
I have a copy of her Marriage certificate dated 24th May 1919 where her age is given as 18! Her full name is given as Margaret Winifred Windrum Patterson Scougal Cutter. Her Father’s name is given as Archibald Thomas Patterson Scougal Cutter (Dead) Occupation was shown as Soldier.
Research that I have done led me to think that after Archie had died his wife married again to a man called Cutter; this was then added to My Grandmothers name (as if she didn’t have enough).  Scougal is aname found frequently in the North East of England and Scotland and I can find just about every permutation of both my grandmother and her father’s names, but none that fully complies.
I find a problem with researching longer names is that the enumerator or whoever completed the forms were often, shall we say lazy, or did not have enough space to add all of the names.
Your comment about Archie’s Military Service does fit in nicely with the dates and does look very plausible. (I’m in Ancestry but have never noticed the Chelsea Pensioner section, must take a better look)
The 1911 census has a 27 years old Margaret Scougal Widow and her 8 years old daughter Winifred born Norwich and Edinburgh Barracks respectively. Like you I can find no reference to such a birth in the records.
David t

[CUMBERLAND SAUSAGE]

Forfarian,
In addition to my comments to Isobel I would add the following comments to your kind reply:
My Great Grandmother name was Margaret Ann which caused me to believe Margaret Ann Chambers was the most likely “Bride”:
I would agree with you that the following Archibald is the most likely:
1.   Born Berwick upon Tweed, 1868
3. Married Newcastle on Tyne, 1896, possible wives Margaret Ann Chambers and Agnes Hume
6. Died Sedgfield 1912, aged 43
This looks like your one.

My GM married in 1919 when her father was deceased.
 I would also add that as far as I know my GM had no siblings, which falls in line with the 1911 census.
 I do not have any proof that the 1901 and the 1911 Margarets are the same person, but taking into account the variations that do occur in ages shown on census documents I do tend to give some leeway on these.

1881 census:
1881, at Tweedmouth: Archibald, 54, woodyard foreman, born Scotland; wife Margaret, 53, born Scotland; children David, 15; Archibald, 12; Agnes, 10; all born Tweedmouth

Young Archie here does fall into line with the one born in 1869 but with only one Christian name it can’t be proven.
I have contacted the Edinburgh Registry Office and they have no records of my GM having been born there either under Scougal, Cutter or Cutler.
Many thanks for your help I will continue my research and see if anything more accurate turns up.
David t

[isobelw]

According to trees on Ancestry the maiden name of the mother of Archibald Patterson Scougal born Tweedmouth 1868 was Windram. This is the family in the 1881 census above. In 1891 they were at Well Road Tweedmouth which matches the next of kin details in the attestation papers for Archibald born 1868.
Isobel

[Forfarian]

Marriage of Margaret A Scougall to Thomas Cutter is registered in the first quarter of 1912, in Tynemouth.

Death of Archibald P Scougal, 43, is registered in Sedgefield in the second quarter of 1912.

In other words, if it was Margaret Ann Chambers or Scougal(l) who married Thomas Cutter, she did so before the death of her husband. You need to get a copy of that marriage certificate to find out (a) the name of the father of this Margaret A Scougall and (b) what she said her marital status was.

[Forfarian]

Young Archie here does fall into line with the one born in 1869 but with only one Christian name it can’t be proven.

It wasn't customary to include middle names or initials in the earlier census - it's not until 1911 that people are asked for full names including middle names. I think Archibald Scougall is uncommon enough to be 99% confident that he is the right one.