Finding info on GM husband in Scotland family Hamill and smith

[Anguts]

Hi. Some of you may have seen my post on finding my grandma, Ellen smith in Duntocker, Scotland. Thanks  for the help.  Now I need help for her husband Joseph Hamill.  He was in the argyle/Sutherland regiment, fought in France and died oct 11/15.  Just found out today he was a prisioner of war.  His reg number is 2558.

Joseph hamill, born 1888, Od Kirkpatrick, married St Mary's church drc31/09' age 22, died oct 11/15.  Memorialized in the Menen gate at Ypres France.  The pow info I found  is a card and a paper says Beerdigt zu Gottingen,  the explanation says this means buried in Gottingen.  So where is he, how did he get captured and what happened to him.  Dint know where to turn on this one

Thanks everyone

[jim1]

When he enlisted Joseph was a furnaceman & had previously served as a part timer in the 1st. DVR.
He was embodied 9/9/14 ie. as a part timer he was made up to a Regular at the outbreak of war.
His address at the time was 654 Dumbarton Rd. Dalmuir.
He had 2 children, Sarah b. 5/7/1910 & Agnes b. 21/1/1912.
He says his father is John & mother is Sarah & they were 68 & 65 at the time the statement was made (1919 by Ellen).
He also says he has 4 sisters & a brother & his parents & 1 sister were living at Banner(n) St. Clydebank. 3 sisters were in Duntocher & his brother was in Dundee.
He was Pte. 2558 Joseph Hamill H Coy. 1/9th. A & SH.
He embarked from S'hampton 19/2/15 for Le Havre.
He was reported missing on 24/5/1915.
11/10/15 information regarding his capture & eventual death from his wounds was passed to the British by the Germans through the American Embassy.
He was buried " near the Chateau North of Wieltle".
Jan. 1916 Ellen is awarded 18s. 6d. widows allowance. She was at this time living at 156 Second Ave. Dalmuir. She was also awarded a War Gratuity of £3 10s.
Ellen received his Plaque & Scroll in 1919 as Ellen Toland.
She also received the 14/15 Star awarded to men who served overseas from late 1914-1915.

1/9th. 1915
9th (The Dumbartonshire) Battalion
August 1914 : at Dumbarton. Part of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Brigade in the Highland Division. Moved to Bedford.
Early 1915 : left Division and landed in France.
23 February 1915 : came under orders of 81st Brigade in 27th Division.
21 May 1915 : transferred to 10th Brigade in 4th Division and on 27 May amalgamated with 1/7th Bn, resuming identity on 20 July. Left Division and became Corps Troops to VI Corps.

2nd. Battle of Ypres
The Second Battle of Ypres, as it is known in British military history, encompassed four battles in the northern sector of the Ypres Salient. The first of these began on 22nd April 1915 as a surprise attack by the German 4th Army on the French sector of the Allied Front Line.

This attack witnessed the first use of a new German weapon on the Western Front: a cloud of poisonous gas. Its deadly effect was carried on a gentle breeze towards French troops and as a result of its devastating effect on the French the German infantry made a significant advance into Allied territory within a few hours.

During the following four weeks after the surprise gas cloud attack the Allied Forces of Belgium, France and Britain fought to hold off the successful German advance and to regain the ground that had been lost north of Ypres. The battle ended on 25th May 1915.

I'm not 100% certain were the 10th. Bde. were in May 1915 but I believe they were South of Ypres around the St. Eloi region.

Gottingen POW camp in the district of Ebertal.
My understanding is that POW's were buried in the City cemetery & reinterred here:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/34711/Gottingen%20Military%20Cemetery
& then:
Most of the grave in Gottingen Military Cemetery were removed to Niederzwehren Cemetery, but the graves of two Indian servicemen remain.
Joseph doesn't appear to be here either so he must be where he was originally buried.
So to sum up Joseph was wounded during the 2nd. Battle of Ypres when the Allies mounted a counter attack on May 24/25th. 1915 & taken prisoner of war where he died in the camp hospital & buried in the local cemetery where he remains or he may have been reinterred as above but as an "unknown soldier".

[Anguts]

Blimey!!  How did you find this information, where do I look.  It's so exciting.  We are coming to Europe next year so we want to visit the memorial.  I still have the plaque from my grand mother.    Thank you very much.   I would especially like to read all the messages that either he or my grand mother wrote.   Also the info in my grandmother travelling to Canada.

Thanks again,  marion.

[rosie17]

Jim has supplied all the army information Joseph's parent's were John Hamill and Sarah Finnigan
Marriage transcribed as John Hamil to Sarah Finnigan 17/7/1874 Old Kilpatrick

1881 Census address 60,William Street Old Kilpatrick
John Hammill born 1855 Glasgow age 26 occupation blacksmith & riveter
Sarah Hammill ( Sarah Jane Finigen ) born 1854 Ireland age 27
Annie Hammill born 1875 Sarah Jane 1876, Euphemia 1879 infant Hammill 2weeks
All children born Duntocher
Annie Finnigen born Ireland 1831 age 50 Mother in law

1891 Census address 44 New Street Old Kilpatrick
John Hammel age 35 ironworker
Sarah Hammel age 35
Sarah Jane age15, Euphemia age 13, John age 11, Mary age 7 , Joseph age 4

1901 same address
John Hamill age 46 blacksmith Sarah 44, Annie 26,Sarah 24,Euphemia 22,John 20, Mary 16, Joseph 13, Mary Gilchrist age 5 visitor

[rosie17]

Hi you will find his army records on Ancestry also immigration records
Rosie

[Anguts]

Jim. I'm see that there was an attachment to your post, do you know how I can't open this?

[jim1]

I've put a link to the CWGC Cemetery at Gottingen if that's what you mean but Joseph isn't there.
He's either still at his original resting place or the other Military Cemetery.
You will need someone local to the Gottingen area to tell you which one.

[Baird]

Hello Anguts, looks like our relatives were in the same section of the front, mine in the 2nd Seaforth Highlanders.
Here is an extract from their War Diary in which the 9th. A & S H get a mention. Their Museum is at Stirling Castle and for a small fee they will transcribe the War Diary of the 9th Battalion for the days you want.

Seaforth Diary States;

24th May 1915;
Hot day on Canal bank.
3am. Gas alarm, stood to arms.
6am. Ordered to proceed to Divisional 2nd Line.
‘B’ Coy. ordered to reinforce 7th Argylls in front of Weiltje in front line trenches. Later ‘B’ Coy. had not yet arrived so ‘A’ Coy. was sent up as line was very thinly held.
10;30 am. ‘C’ and ‘D’ Coys move up to Divisional Support Line.
Disposition was;
7th Argylls in front of WEILTJE,ROYAL IRISH FUSILIERS on their right, ROYAL DUBLIN FUSILIERS on left of 7th Argylls.
 9th. Argylls had been in Retrenchment and went up to support the DUBLINS  who had their left on SHELLTRAP FARM. The WARWICKS were in the Divisional Support Line with ‘C’ and ‘D’ Coys of SEAFORTHS in Shelltrap Farm and the line to the left of the line  to the right said to have fallen.
The shelling had been very heavy indeed all morning. The position remained the same until dark.
8;30pm, ‘C’ Coy. sent up to support the 7th Argylls and ‘A’ and ‘B’ Coys. in front of WEILTJE. Warned that counterattack to retake lost trenches would take place at 10pm. And that we should be relieved afterwards
10;30pm. Counterattack not to take place but we are to withdraw the line to the Divisional Support Line.
The Battalion withdrew at dawn to LA BRIQUE into dugouts.
CASUALTIES MAY 24TH.
58 GASSED
15 KILLED.
84 WOUNDED
9 MISSING

A further entry but not much different.

NOTES FOR MAY 1915

On the 2nd May our gas masks were found to be useless, being made of nothing but woollen waist belt. We lost several men killed from Gas.
By 24th May the men had quite good muslin respirators which were more efficient.
( ? helmets not issued until 14th).

On coming up to Ypres the Division came under the command of O/C 5th Corps and subsequently transferred to 6th. Corps. ( ? 3Corps)

FURTHER ACCOUNT OF GAS ATTACK ON 2ND MAY 1915.

5.30PM. The battalion had only very inefficient respirators.
Gas sent over. The Battalion stood firm and held their trenches- though nearly every man was badly affected. The Battalion on our left had to leave their trenches, which were re occupied by the 7th Argylls who had to charge through the Gas.
The Germans formed up ready for an attack but we inflicted losses on them and it came to nothing.
For several days the men were dropping off sick. Some lasted for 3 or 4 days and in the case of officers , up to a week before they went sick.
7.30pm. All quiet

FURTHER DETAILS OF ACTION ON THE 24TH MAY 1915
3AM. Gas Alarm. Some of the men affected on the Canal Bank but mostly Gas Shells there.
6.30 am. ‘B’ Coy. ordered up to reinforce the 7th. Argylls. They did not reach them until 8.30am. They had difficulty in reaching the trench as they came under artillery fire and had difficulty in getting through our new barbed wire.

The brigade was disposed as follows;
7th. ARGYLLS in front of WEILTJE, DUBLINS on their left and IRISH FUSILIERS on the ARGYLLS right.
9th ARGYLLS in retrenchments had gone up to support DUBLINS who had their left in SHELLTRAP FARM. DIVISIONAL SUPPORT LINE held by ‘C’ and ‘D’ Coys. and WARWICKS

8.30AM. ‘A’ Coy. sent up to support ‘B’ Coy.
 Great difficulty experienced in communicating owing to state of trenches- telephone line was cut.
10.30am. Heavy shell fire- Lt. Col Cardins(?) and several Argylls officers wounded.

12-1pm. Enemy penetrated line on left of ARGYLLS and took part of trench.

1.30pm.  ‘A’ Coy. reached 7TH. ARGYLLS with some difficulty through shell fire.

3pm. Germans attempted slight attack opposite ‘B’ Coy. which was easily knocked out.

1.30-4.30pm. Heavy shelling, after which fairly quiet.

MAY 24TH.(CONTD)
7.30PM. German bomb party started working towards us but was easily repulsed by our bomb party.
Later Germans reported working round our flank, but this was not corroborated by our patrols.

8.30pm. ‘C’ Coy went up to reinforce front line.

10.30pm. Counterattack which was planned, was cancelled.

MAY 25TH.

1.30am. Evacuated our trenches by order, in perfect quiet and order. Line withdrawn to Divisional Support Line.
Battalion bivouacked in or near LA BRIQUE

I have transcribed the 2nd Seaforth Diary from their mobilisation in 1914 until my Grandfathers brothers death in October 1916 . Let me know by PM if you want any of it. You will find photographs of the places named on Google images, especially Shelltrap Farm.
Baird

[jim1]

That's interesting. This puts the 9th. north of Ypres at shell/mouse trap farm which is north of Weiltje.
The Germans said he was" buried near the Chateau North of Wieltle".
It than goes on to say he died in Germany.
Maybe what was meant is that he was captured near the Chateau north of Weitje as the Germans had taken the farm on the 24th.
Thanks to Bairds diary entry we can now place the 9th. on the 24th.May 1915 (in yellow)