Am I making a dreadful mistake?

[LizzieL]

Summary of service record

Enlisted 6 Dec 1915  - to Reserve
Attested 21 Jun 1916 26 Bn Manchester regt (23102)
Mobilised - Home 20 Jun 1916 to 29 Oct 1916
BEF France 30 Oct 1916
Posted 17th Kings Liverpool Regiment 31 Oct 1916 service number 56489
Embarked Folkstone 31 Oct 1916
Disembarked Boulogne 31 Oct 1916
Etaples 1 Nov 1916
Posted 9th Kings Liverpool Regiment 16 Nov 1916 (or 18  Nov 1916) allotted new regimental number 6238
Had leave late Oct  - early Nov 1818 - possibly wounded (dates confusing on casualty form)
Demob 5 Nov 1919 (service no 332762) address for pay: 45 Chipp.... or Clipp... Street, Longs...t, Manchester.

(Other service number mentioned 28836)
He signed for his medals on 2 May 1922. Signature looks the same as on attestation - i.e not his father James signing on his behalf.

[LizzieL]

You need to go back and have a look at the 1911 census return for James - take the information about the marriage and work backwards. It does not look like James is a 'Southwell'.
Jen

I think that James was the child of his father's first wife   - From Lancs OPC below

Baptism - James Southwell 15 Jul 1891 St Mark, Hulme, Lancashire
Parents - James Reid Southwell & Sarah Ann
Living at  5 School St. Chester Rd.
Father's occupation - Wood Carver

Kay

James Reid Southwell married Q2 1891, one possible bride is Sarah Ann Thorpe (other one is Elizabeth)

Added
Ancestry has parish record, marriage took place on 11th April 1891 at Hulme

[garstonite]

quote "Etaples 1 Nov 1916
Posted 9th Kings Liverpool Regiment 16 Nov 1916 (or 18  Nov 1916) allotted new regimental number 6238
Had leave late Oct  - early Nov 1818 - possibly wounded (dates confusing on casualty form)"

Etaples was famous for a huge Pandemic Flu outbreak of British soldiers in 1918
so - he may not have been wounded - but sent home sick with the Flu ??
http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/body-and-mind/the-etaples-flu-pandemic/
also - over 80,000 soldiers who fought in WW1 were prescribed as being severly shellshocked - a lot had mental issues - maybe he was a casualty of shellshock ??

[rossendalerose]

Maybe she had to marry Mr Williams, like she did with Mr Southwell.

My husband (who is a glass half empty person!) thinks that the last baby is Mr Williams which explains their very hasty marriage. However -unless she's put S. Williams Holmes on the birth cert we'll never know.

One other thought on James Snr. di he go missing and might he have been declared dead by his wife after 7 years and Sarah remarries as a widow 

other half said that Mr Southwell obviously wasn't missing if he was demobbed and signed for his medals - but Sarah Cora could be living just far enough away for her to hide the facts.

[

No I don't have James (jnr) birth cert - another avenue to explore.

I

Not painting a very nice picture of this woman are we?

The family knew she's been married twice but probably thought it was the  Holmes and Williams marriages (so the Southwell marriage and the non-marriage to Holmes will be news to them). The Southwell children were never mentioned to me. They also remember Cora as a proper, dignified lady.
Rose H

[LizzieL]

According to James army record, son Herbert was born 27 April 1913. There is a death registered of Herbert Southwell in Q4 1983 in Stockport district with that same dob.

It's strange that James (1917) isn't mentioned on the record. The page with wife and Herbert is repeated in the record. I have often seen several repetitions with successive children added as they are born during a man's service. Although these were long service soldier's during (relative) peace time, so I expect more time to devote to record keeping.

[ele002]

If the Herbert Southwell death in Stockport is the correct one, then maybe the James Southwell death in 1966 is his Father's.

[ele002]

This one gets better.

James Reid Southwell marr Sarah Ann Thorpe...11 Apr 1891 @ St Marks, Hulme.
James Southwell Bap 15 Jul 1891 @ St Mark, Hulme. f. Jas Reid Southwell, m. Sarah Ann.
Sarah Ann Southwell died 1895, Chorlton.
James Southwell marr Mary Alice Thorpe...1899, Chorlton Reg...His sister in law

Looks like his first marriage wasn't out of choice.

Incidentally, his second wife was 5 yrs older than him. Another family tradition!

What other skeletons are in the cupboard?

[LizzieL]

And in 1901, two other Thorpe sisters in law are with James and his second wife.

The 1966 death reg for James does look the most likely one.

[LizzieL]

James who was born 1917 and died in ww2 was registered Q2 1917 i.e registered between 1st April and 30th June 1917. As you have 42 days after birth to register it, he could have been born as early as 19 Feb 1917. For a baby to be born on 19 Feb it would have to be conceived between 25 May and 2nd June 1916 (I have tried several online calculators and that's the time window they seem to come up with) . For a birth on 30th June 1917, conception would be 4th - 12th October 1916.

His father enlisted 6 Dec 1915  but was in the reserve until 20 Jun 1916. So I assume he would be living at home up until then. He was mobilised on 20th June 1916, had his medical examination on that day and attested the day after at Manchester. His record says service was at Home until he embarked for France on 31st October 1916, but that could mean anywhere in the British Isles, including what is now the Republic of Ireland. If he was living at home from June to October although mobilised or could make home visits, the James jnr is likely to be his, but if last contact with his wife was 20th June 1916, then it would produce a child born 12th March 1917, which is feasible, but why delay registration until the second quarter?

Hmm tricky one