My Ultimate Brick Wall!

[Earlsdau]

I do not know where to post this as it may cover England, Scotland and possibly even Ireland! Scotland it may be Renfrewshire or Angus. England: Dorset or Lancashire. Ireland....no idea!

Surname: CLARK or CLARKE. First name: Charles. Occupation: Smith.

These are the only formal references I have to the father of an almost equally elusive son.

- On Charles's son, Frank's marriage record in 1891 it states his father as being Charles CLARK a Smith. It does not say he is deceased.

- On his son Frank's Military Records it states Frank's place of birth as Dagons, Dorset, England

- Frank's year of birth is circa 1865, based on age at recruitment in 1890 and at death in 1899.

- Frank's army enlistment place is stated to be Liverpool, Lancashire.

- I have found no census records for this family for either England or Scotland in 1871 or 1881. This has made me wonder whether either Charles CLARK (alone) or his family may have been living in Ireland at that time. We know the Irish Censuses for those years no longer exist. Could Charles have been a Blacksmith in the Scottish Military and based in Ireland? Could he/the family have just lived in Ireland?

- On Frank's Military papers his NOK is stated to be his mother, either Ann or Alice, an older brother John and a younger sister. The brother John is stated to be in the 13th Hussars. Investigation via the National Archives can find no John CLARK in the 13th Hussars in several years leading up to 1890. However there is a J. ELLIOTT but no further information is available.

- Frank's three children (2 boys and one girl) were all given the middle name of Elliott. Was there something significant about this name? I have searched for Clark/Elliott marriages but nothing pans out in England or Scotland.

- The address given for his mother on his attestation papers is 7 Guion Road, Litherland, Lancashire.

- The 1891 Census shows a James and Elizabeth CLARK to be living at that Litherland address. In trying to find a connection between James CLARK and Charles CLARK I have traced James (marine engineer) to Arbroath, Angus Scotland. Their first child Elizabeth Jane was born in 1868 at Silvermills House, Midlothian, Edinburgh. Despite going back a couple of generations I have yet to find a connection to Charles and James. However my investigations have not been completely thorough on this front as the name is so common (and I'm at the point of being befuddled), also Scottish records are so expensive to universally access.

- A recent family comment from a relative of someone who died only three years ago says that she believed this CLARK family came from Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland. How many generations this would have been is unknown, if indeed this is true.

So that is about a summary of what I 'don't know' about Charles. I have investigated ELLIOTT as a surname option but that hasn't panned out either. There is one family living so close to Dagons/Cranborne who even has a Frank born about the same time but it is not him.

I know many of you people are absolutely amazing with the ideas you have and the resources you can access, so was wondering if you can pull anything wondrous on this one?

[DonM]

There are 57 Charles Clark/Clarke's born in Scotland 1855-1865

Four of these were born in Renfrewshire

1857 CLARK CHARLES M PORT GLASGOW /RENFREW 574/00 0044   
1859 CLARK CHARLES M PAISLEY HIGH CHURCH /RENFREW 573/01 0462   
1864 CLARK CHARLES M JOHNSTONE (RENFREW) /RENFREW 559/03 0198   
1864 CLARK CHARLES CRIMMEN M GREENOCK OLD OR WEST /RENFREW 564/03 0033

Details of these births may be acquired from http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

There is a Charles Clark son of a Charles Clark b 1860 in Dorset it says he is a laborer but his occupation may have changed and you would have to locate him in 1871/1881 Census to prove/disprove this is the same family.

Don

[Earlsdau]

Thank you Don. These four Renfrewshire Charles are too late to be the father of Frank. The Charles I am looking for, would have been born more like 1830-1840. However they could be son's of Charles who would be a brother of Frank. But where is the elusive Frank's birth record??? (I have concluded his birth was never registered).

I definitely need to do more research into the Paisley/Abbey connection for the Clarks.

[back2front]

Hi

Was Frank his given name or was he a Francis,Frederick or something else?
Do you know the younger sister's name?
Are you sure the Elliot connection is through Frank's side of the family and not his wife?
Also what was Frank's wife's name, just help in looking for the right family!

[MonicaL]

Just adding this link to an older post here on RC www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=626665.0

Have to say, I think there is some grounds to think that possibly Frank was the Frank Percy Elliot discussed there. Would be good to find Frank in 1881 though, this entry has not yet been found.

Monica 

[Earlsdau]

Back2front - I have four official documentations of Frank - three of which use the name Frank CLARK and one which uses Frank Elliott CLARK! I have not found a birth record (neither on Free BMD/GRO or any transcripts), nor have I found despite extensive searching reference to him or his family in 1871 and 1881 UK, (England, Wales and Scotland) censuses. That's why I was wondering about whether his family may have been living in Ireland at that time.

No I do not know his younger sister's name. The only reference to her I have is on Frank's attestation papers in 1890.

At his marriage he used the name Frank Elliott CLARK, which implies it is from his side of the family.

His wife's name was Elizabeth Harriet or sometimes Harriet Elizabeth JONES. Her family were from....you've guessed it....Wales!

[Earlsdau]

It does at times seem compelling MonicaL due to:

1). The names of the grandparents of Frank P(i)ercy being Charles and Ann....these are the very names which seem to be names used by Frank Elliott CLARK in later documentation albeit his father with a different surname CLARK. Of course he may have found out that his 'real' father was a Charles CLARK who had a liaison with his mother Sarah Rachel ELLIOTT resulting in Frank. It could be coincidence that both maternal grandfather and father were both Charles. His mother Sarah ELLIOTT died just after his birth in 1862.

2). The location is incredibly compelling...being in the Wimbourne area.

3). There does not seem to be a census record for Frank P(i)ercy for 1881 either.

There are a couple of reason why the evidence is less convincing.

1). Ann, Frank P(i)ercy ELLIOTT's grandmother died in 1880. On Frank Elliott CLARK'S attestation papers in 1890, it gives his 'mothers' name as Ann or Alice living in 7 Guion Road, Litherland. We know Frank P(i)ercy's birth mother Sarah had long been dead. The main 'Ann' in his life would be his grandmother, so why would he say she lived in Liverpool, ten years after she had died?

2). Who would the 'younger sister' be as mentioned in the Attestation papers? It doesn't seem to be his grandmother Ann's child. The 1881 census of Charles and Ann ELLIOTT do not mention a younger child, who would be less than ten at that stage.

3). The age is about four years out based on Frank's attestation papers, marriage record and more importantly his death record in 1899. Frank P(i)ercy was born 1862. The purported Frank Elliott CLARK was born around 1865/6. He was 34 when he died in 1899.

4). A year or so ago I thought I tracked Frank P(i)ercy Elliott's marriage and it was totally incorrect for what I knew the facts to be, so I concluded fairly categorically it wasn't him. However I have spent a couple of days since the last poster raised this, looking for the evidence I found at that time and I can't now find it. Also there was a Frank Percy Elliott who is registered as a Surgeon in 1913 in London. I have had trouble finding more information where this surgeon was from altho' he went to Aberdeeen university. We know that in 1899 Frank Elliott CLARK died at Woolwich.

So whilst I would love it to be him I need more evidence to accept it as fact.

[MonicaL]

For sure you need lots of confirmation either way 

As you know, until you kind the key data, birth years and lots of other personal info were often variable/fluid and not so important as today.

These types of searches are always hard as you truly know...

Monica