Mary Hannah (DAVIES) born 1878, Cwmavon, Glamorgan

[CaroleW]

Mary Hannah was not a Davies.  She was the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Thomas and although shown as Davies on the 1881/1891 censuses whilst still a child - she may have reverted to her birth surname as an adult and if she married.

It is still not clear what proof you have that Mary Hannah was Olwen's mother rather than another of her sisters.   

Olwen married as Davies - so if you are absolutely sure that Mary Hannah was her mother Mary Hannah Thomas must have married a Davies or Olwen was illegitimate and registered as Davies. 

There are only 2 birth registrations in Neath in 1905 for an Olwen Davies - March qtr and December qtr. 

Freebmd has 2 marriage entries between 1895-1901 for a Mary Hannah Thomas in Neath but only one has a male Davies on the same page - 1898 Thomas Davies so you may want to have a look for a 1901/1911 entry as I think it is the right marriage.

You really need a copy of Olwen's marriage cert to see whether any fathers name/occupation is shown.  If none is shown - then the only option is buying the December qtr birth cert for Olwen as you know she was born September 1905

[[Ray]]

"I  do not have Olwen's marriage certificate nor her birth certificate. Her grand daughter told me who she married."

Her grand-daughter has the marriage certificate?
You really do need it, not 3rd party reports.
Her grand-daughter may be making assumptions and/or handed-down info may be deliberately "amended" due to the negative side of illegitimacy.

[Special Needs Girl]

Thank your Ray and CaroleW.

I don't believe that the fact that Mary Hannah Davies was illegitimate has any consequence to finding her on the 1901 and 1911 census.
I am sure she was not aware that she was born "out of wedlock" and would have used James' surname until her marriage.
I have quite a prominent member within my family who knows nothing about his grandfather being born and registered with a different Christian and surname (not to mention place of birth) than the one he was called and lived by. I don't think they asked for birth certificates when the family originally emigrated. I am certainly not telling the family of my findings unless I am asked.

Also I don't think obtaining Olwen DAVIES's birth certificate is going to help me find Mary Hannah and Olwen on the censuses. I know her date of birth and death.
Many men we're killed in mining accidents around that time so there is the possibility Mary Hannah may have remarried by 1911.

After checking every Mary H on the 1911 census I have found one with a daughter Olwen Davies although there are possibly inaccuracies and definitely omissions. As I know the area where the family ended up living, I am inclined to lean towards this entry.  It has taken me weeks to find and is the only one that seems "best fit".
As for the 1901 census, I shall just have to "trawl" through the Cwmafan pages. She is probably "in service". I doubt there would have been enough money to feed all the children from one wage packet. As it was Hannah died young and James not long after. Sadly they are not buried together. James is with his parents and Hannah with six infants and one older child.

Thank you for pointing out the date of my great grand parents' marriage. I hadn't spotted the later date. A genealogist once told me that the church accepted the fact that a man "would bed before he wed" to ensure children in some Welsh areas.
I believe there was as much illegitimacy in the past as there is now. Yes I know they were more "hung up" about it and children were brought up as "siblings" to "save grace" but thankfully the stigma is no longer here.

Have a good weekend
Best wishes
SNG

[[Ray]]

? Death 1970 Dec Merthyr T 8b 2082 Mary Hannah Davies (8Oc1879) ?


"I don't believe that the fact that Mary Hannah Davies was illegitimate has any consequence to finding her on the 1901 and 1911 census."
Correct, but that was not what I was saying.
People supplying the info could be masking the illegitimacy.


"I am sure . . . . ." [No proof]
"Also I don't think  [No proof]. . . . I know her date of birth and death" [No proof, 3rd party]
"I am inclined to . . . . ." [No proof]
Etc..

All the way thru your post are assumptions and un-proven (ie un-documented) details.

There is a couple in 1901 with child who may fit
There are 2x "families" in 1911 who may fit, 1x "very possible" (eg "mother" is single / geo / ages . . . . . )


We cannot do the 1911 searches for you, but YOU CAN PUBLISH what you find.


R

[rosie99]

Hi

Not sure if I have missed something while reading through the posts but in your first post you state that you need Hannah's marriage details.  Olwens marriage certificate should show her fathers name (if she was legitimate) you would then have a name for the husband of Hannah. 

Rosie

[[Ray]]

Hir Rosie

Yup, both Carole and I have been beating on about how useful the documentation would be.

Thank you for re-inforcing the point.

R

[osprey]

Mary Hannah in 1901, unmarried and living with Hannah's mother, her grandmother

15 Finers Row, Michaelstone Lower RG13/5054 folio 57 pg 16
Hannah Thomas head widow 74 b. Carmarthen
Margaret Thomas dau 38 tinplate opener b. Cwmavon
Mary Hannah Thomas grand dau 23 tin plate opener b. Cwmavon
William Davies grandson 18 tinplate behinder b. Cwmavon
David Rees nephew tinplate steel works b. Kidwelly

1901 17 London Row, RG13/5054 folio 6 pg 4
James davies head mar 47 tin plate rollerman
Hannah wife 44
Margaret dau 20 plate opener in tinworks
Thomas son 16 behinder in tinworks
James son 13
Mary A dau 11 school
David son 9 school
Sarah J dau 7 school
George T son 6 school

1891 17 London Row RG12/4459 folio 61 pg 28
James Davies head mar 38 baller in tin works
Hannah wife 34
Mary H dau 13 working in tinworks
Margaret dau 11
William son 9
Thomas son 7
James son 3
Marry Ann dau 1
all born Cwmavon

The family weren't depending on one wage, as soon as the children left school, probably 13, they would have been working in the tin works, like Mary Hannah is shown in 1891. Moving in with a grandparent is not uncommon as it freed up room in the family home and there was income coming into the grandparent's home in times before the old page pension.

[CaroleW]

From reply above

I am sure she was not aware that she was born "out of wedlock" and would have used James' surname until her marriage.

I think the 1901 entry re-inforces my earlier reply

She was the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Thomas and although shown as Davies on the 1881/1891 censuses whilst still a child - she may have reverted to her birth surname as an adult and if she married.

[[Ray]]

Hi Osprey

See reply #7 etc..

The bottom line is that the family does not have ( nor wish to get ) the linking paperwork about Olwen Humphrey from her marriage then historically backwards. It is only verbal, then conjecture.


Ray