Richard and Elizabeth Williams X2?

[Trees]

Help something very strange is going on here ...or is it?

One of my  direct ancestors was Isabella Williams I have her on all the censuses between and including 1841 and 1891 she died in 1896. The censuses and her death point to her being baptised
28 July 1817 in St Martins Birmingham daughter of Richard Williams and Elizabeth. Her baptism gives their place of abode as Cheapside Deritend and her father as a whitesmith

BUT there is also this baptism for Isabella Williams 16 Jun 1816 Deritend, St John the Baptist,
daughter of Richard Williams a Jobbing smith abode  Deritend and Elizabeth Williams

At first I thought  maybe they had changed church and the first Isabella had died but then I found two more baptisms
Richard son of Richard and Elizabeth Williams baptised 21 Jun 1818 in St John the Baptist Deritend  abode Cheapside father a white smith
and
Richandys Jeremiah Williams born 5 Jun 1818 baptised    31 May 1819 in St Martins to Richard and Elizabeth father a whitesmith of Cheapside
These Richards are too near to be a death and second child and the address doesn't indicate a move.

Other children were baptised in St Martins to either father a white smith or a jobbing smith The last child I have found was Ebenezer born 16 Dec 1827 baptised 30 May 1828 father a jobbing smith of Cheapside
But I have found a death for Elizabeth which could well be the mother of at least some of the children buried 17 Feb 1835 age 54 in St Martins wife of Richard abode Cheapside.

Do you think there are two Richard and Elizabeth WILLIAMS in Cheapside both being Whitesmith's  Could Elizabeth  have been mother of Ebenezer if she was born in 1781?
There is a marriage in 1806 of Richard Williams and Elizabeth Harltey their first known child was born in 1808 But the only Elizabeth Hartley baptism I have found was in 1778

I wonder if anyone can suggest a logical explanation please?

[spark]

Hi trees,

You don't say if you are quoting modern transcripts, bishops transcripts or actual registers.

I have come across private baptism when a child was not expected to survive and then a public baptism when it did survive.  This could be one explanation.

Another possibility if they came upon hard times and had to prove they were a parish liability.

Could there be 2 spouses, both Elizabeth?  I mean one after the other rather than bigamous

Spark

[Trees]

All images of Parish registers. I too have seen Private baptisms (in fact Isabella's husband was one such baptised 6 Sep 1818 publically received Nov 4th St John's Deritend) but not recorded in two different churches.
I did wonder about two Elizabeths and one Richard but the closeness of the two sons named Richard baptisms ruled that out and the regularity of the children's births. ie
1808,1810,1812,1814,1816,1817,1818.1820,1823,1827.
I am worried by the last one and wonder if he was an illegitimate son of a daughter being passed as child of the grandparents, there were two possible daughters old enough to have a child in 1827

An added complication is the penultimate child's baptism. Rudhall was born 5 Apr 1823 and
baptised in St Martins 29 Dec 1824 abode Cheapside father a Blacksmith!
I can't find any Rudhall conection so where did his name come from and is the Blacksmith indicating a second Richard and Elizabeth I have looked for a Richard/Elizabeth marriage between 1820 and 1823 with no luck
There is a burial in St Martins for an Elizabeth Williams of the workhouse 16 Aug 1824 age 30  Another from the work house buried     15 Sep 1824 age not clear

[Trees]

well I have now found two burials for Elizabeth the wife of Richard one in St Phillips in 1831 age 50 living in Pinfold St and one in St Matins 1835 age 54 iving in Cheapside both wife of Richard
So there must be at least two couples.Both these Elizabeths born 1781 s owould either be able to have  have Ebenezer in 1827 ie at 46?
It may explain why I have two Isabella & Richard baptisms to Richard and Elizabeth with out finding deaths \oh dear how on earth do I sort this one out
who needs Agatha Chrystie when your interesterd in Family history?

[jim1]

FWIW I think they are one in the same.
St. John's was a Chapel of Ease made out of St. Peter's & St. Paul's Aston for the benefit of Deritend/Bordesley residents.
Can find only 1 Richard Williams marriage around the right time & that's to an Eliza Hartley 1805 St. Martin's.

[Trees]

Ok I too feel there is only one Isabella but the two burials for Elizabeth mean there must be two Richard and Elizabeth couples they are 4 years different. It is odd only finding the one marriage though the one in 1806 is to ELIZA Hartley The first baptism looks like its before the marriage: Ann Eliza Williams 3 Oct 1805 St Martins but as she is an Eliza maybe it was an engagement babe.
\there are two blacksmith baptisms 2 jobbing smiths, 4 white smiths the rest haven't mentioned the occupation Do you think there is a blacksmith family and a white smith family am I right to link the blacksmiths with the jobbing smiths?

[jim1]

A whitesmith is unlikely to be jobbing whereas a self-employed blacksmith would.
Whitesmiths tended to be in the employ of others.
Maybe he did both in someone's employ.
St. Martin's was the closest Church to Deritend although it fell into the Aston Parish.
Many people in that area had weddings & baptisms at St. Martin's.
It may have been attendances at St. John's was falling & a bit of arm twisting was applied by the Chaplain hence the double baptisms.

[Trees]

helping myself see it all clearly
RICHARD & ELIZABETH m 1806 St Martins
1805 Ann Eliza St Martins
1808 -1810 Mary Ann St Martins
1810 Elizabeth  St Martins
1812 Mary Ann  Cheapside St Martins
1814 Martha  Cheapside white smith St Martins
1816 Isabella Deritend jobbing smith  St John
1817 Isabella Cheapside white smith Cheapside St Martins
1818 Richandus Jeremiah Williams born 5 Jun baptised 31 May 1819 Cheapside white smith  St Martins
1818 12 Jun Richard  White smith St Johns
1820 -1836 Caroline Blacksmith Cheapside St Martins
1823 Rudhall Blacksmith  Cheapside St Martins
1827 -1828 Ebenezer   Jobbing Smith   Cheapside  St Martins

[jim1]

Have you found anyone in 1841 ?