Maria Smith - Removal orders and Workhouse Admission Mint St 1859

[meljade]

Hi,

After some general thoughts and help.....

One of of my ancestors Maria Smith (born approx 1828) was admitted to the St Georges Workhouse, Mint St on 21/7/1859.  She has her children with her -  Lavinia Sarah aged 13, Elizabeth aged 10, Caroline aged 9, Emily aged 8, Alfred aged 6, Edwin aged 5, Susan aged 2 and Frederick aged 1 month.

The records states that they were subject to poor removal order St Mary Bermondsey, Widow of Edwin Smith Soap Maker Manchester.  How long after the death of a spouse did families normally get removed?  I can't find any removal order record, which I'm assuming there would be, perhaps I've been looking to long and can't see the forest for the trees!

I'm assuming Edwin Smith died somewhere in Lancashire if the workhouse mentioned Manchester (Manchester wouldn't be a birth place?)  Fredrick's baptism record lists Edwin is the Father, so if this is correct, Edwin would have died after September 1858.

In 1851 the family (including Edwin Smith) is listed as living at 21 Pitt St, St George the Martyr, Southwark.

Maria Smith re-marries William Ward (another shoemaker) in 1894 with children born to this relationship - Matilda Maria in 1863 and Priscilla in 1866 (both in the parish of Bermondsey)

Thanks Mel

[Milliepede]

Manchester is a bit confusing isn't it - what was Edwins birthplace on the 1851 census?

There is an Edwin Smith death in Bermondsey in Sep 1858

Is that correct Maria marries in 1894 with children born in the 1860's 
William Ward is marked as deceased on daughters marriage 11 August 1894

[Milliepede]

4 of the children baptised 30 July 1862  no note that Edwin is deceased on the record

Elizabeth Maria
Caroline Ann
Emily Jane
Susan Sophia

Sorry still can't find the marriage William Ward/Maria Smith - where was it?  Is she widow.

[ciderdrinker]

Hi
There is a burial at Manchester General Cemetery
Edwin Smith 24/5/1859

http://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/GenSearch.aspx
Apparently there are more details if you pay for them on the above site.

Ciderdrinker

[Bookbox]

How long after the death of a spouse did families normally get removed?  I can't find any removal order record, which I'm assuming there would be

At this date a family would only be removed if they actively applied for assistance from a parish, and were judged on examination to be ineligible for it. Not all removal orders survive, and not all of those that do are online, and many are wrongly described by Ancestry. In this case, a settlement examination would be more useful anyway, but I'm fairly sure there aren't any for Bermondsey or St George Southwark at this date. When the LMA catalogue is up and running again, hopefully later today, this can be checked.

I'm assuming Edwin Smith died somewhere in Lancashire if the workhouse mentioned Manchester (Manchester wouldn't be a birth place?)

The Mint Street admission record actually says 'Widow of Edwin Smith Soap Maker at Manchester'. This would suggest that he had been living there and he died there, and Maria had then returned to Southwark/Bermondsey.

The death index shows two or three possible Edwin Smith deaths in the Manchester area in 1858-1859, one of them aged 36 in 1859 (according to LancsBMD).

[Milliepede]

Might be worth checking newspapers just in case his death is mentioned.

[meljade]

Apologies...I haven't worked on this side of the tree for a while, this was incorrect information that I didn't get around to changing previously, I probably should have picked it up with a marriage 30 years after the birth of a child! The 1881 census I have for Maria Ward lists her a widow, so William Ward must have died before then.  It is quite possible that Maria and William never married.

Yes the baptism records for 4 of the children are on the same day do not mention that Edwin is deceased, bit unusual.

The birth place for Edwin in the 1851 census states London.  The 1841 census lists him living in the parish of St George the Martyr Southwark, Surrey, but not born in the County.  I have him with a birth year of approx 1824?

If I could find the removal orders for Maria it may shed some more light on the situation??

[meljade]

There is a Edwin Smith who died 10/4/1859 in Manchester, St John the Evangelist listed Jun Qtr 1859 (8d 200) but he is only 17 years old.

If Edwin Smith died 1858/59 and the year of birth is accurate according to the censuses he would have been about 36 years old, so the death listed in Lancs BMD could be a possibility.

[meljade]

I have had a look at LMA, records of removal orders for Bermondsey seem to start in 1862 which is unfortunate.