Where is K N ?

[bellysally]

I am searching for the Murphy family that lived in Edinburgh in the 1800's and I have found a 1851 Scotland census that has place of birth as K N. I have no idea where K N is or means and so hoping someone can help.
  Cheers and Thanks

[Rosinish]

Kirk Newton possibly?

Annie

[Rosinish]

It may be an idea to post more details of the people as others may be able to help?

Annie

[isobelw]

Is it the family of Daniel Murphy in West Calder? If so, it actually says N K which means ' not known'. They are lodging with someone and it is possible that the landlord provided the details and didn't know where they were born.
Isobel

[bellysally]

Not sure if they are the family. The information I have for the Murphy family is -  Mary (known as Ellen) Murphy b around 1840-44 d abt 1885. her mother was Helen (Ellen) Murphy and I do not know if that is her maiden name or what. I have no information of who her father was. Mary Murphy was born in Edinburgh and she married Henry Gemmell and they had the following children -  Helen (Ellen) Gemmell b 1867 Bothwell, Lanark - d 1920 Auckland, NZ married James Kennedy; John Thomas Gemmell b 1869 Bothwell, Lanark - d 1934 Auckland, NZ; Bridget b 1871 Bothwell, Lanark d unk; Mary Ann b Bothwell, Lanark - d unk.
 A second cousin of mine researched the Kennedy tree and I was told years ago that in 1861 Mary Murphy resided at St Paul, Glasgow and in 1881 at St Quivox, Ayrshire but as of yet I have no Scotland census of any of the Murphy family - just a 1891 census for Mary's daughter Helen, married to James Kennedy and living at 27 Bell St, New Monkland.
 I am searching census for Murphy family and came upon the 1851 census that has - father Mark Murphy age 35 born Ireland, occ Hawker Carthen Wire; Helen Murphy age 35 b Kn or NK and their children Mary age 11 born Edinburgh;  Rosana age 4 born Edinburgh and Cathrine age 2 born Tranent, Haddington. This is the only 1851 census that has Mary Murphy and mother Helen. I have not searched 1861 etc as yet.

[isobelw]

Can't find Henry and Mary Gemmell in the 1871 census but their daughter Helen ( age 3) is with her paternal grandparents John and Helen Murphy living at Gowkhill, Holytown, Bothwell. She is very badly transcribed on the various indices so not easy to pinpoint.
 Scotland's people have her as Helen Gemmill age 3( ref 625/2 5/35). John ( age 50) and Helen ( age 44) Murphy plus their son Thomas ( age 12) appear on the previous page ( ref 625/2 5/34). Findmypast have her as Helen Gernmill, granddaughter age 3 born Ireland ( I think this is a mistake - see later). John Murphy is age 50 born Ireland, a Pit Labourer, Helen Murphy is age 44 born Ireland and their son Thomas is age 12 ( shown as born Bothwell but their is no obvious birth for him and in the 1881 census he is still living with his parents and place of birth is given as Ireland. I think the places of birth for Thomas Murphy and Helen Gemmel may have been accidentally transposed in 1871).
Ancestry have made a real hash of this entry. John Murphy  is age 50 born Ireland but Helen is mistranscribed as Helne and her age is given as 46. Thomas is correctly described as age 12 born Bothwell. Helen Gemmell is transcribed as Peter Gemmiill !! age 2 born Ireland.
In 1881 John and Helen Murphy are living at North Road, Holytown. John is age 60, born Ireland, a Coal Miner and Ellen is age 55 born Ireland. Thomas is still with them, age 23, now shown as born Ireland. Also in the household is Thomas Gemmel age 12, grandson, born Newarthill, Lanarkshire ( I think this is Henry and Mary's son John Thomas, born 1869).
I am not sure where you got Edinburgh as a place of birth for Mary. Was it a census? If Mary was the daughter of John and Helen Murphy above then I think it is much more likely that she was born in Ireland as the family still appear to have been living there as late as 1859 when Their son Thomas was born.
Isobel

[isobelw]

Mary Gemmell or Murphy died in the Poorhouse Hospital New Monkland on 6th August 1885 age 39. Her death certificate confirms her to be the wife of Henry Gemmell, Miner and her parents are given as John Murphy, labourer, deceased and Helen Murphy nee Narry deceased. She died from lung cancer and the informant was the poorhouse governor ( entry 651/2 173)
I think I have found her mother's death also - Helen Murphy nee Neary died at Airdrie or New Monkland in 1884 age 53 ( entry 651/1 18). You can look at her death certificate on Scotlandspeople and this should give you the names of her parents. The age is slightly out on the 1881 census where she is 55 so I'm wondering if it has been mistranscribed and should be 58. Can't find an obvious death for John Murphy even though he supposedly died between 1881 and 1885.
I had a look at Helen Gemmell's birth certificate to see if it gave a date/place of marriage for Henry and Mary as this would have provided details about both sets of parents. In case you don't have it, she was born 14th Nov 1867 at Newarthill, Bothwell. Father Henry was a coalminer. Marriage supposedly took place in Coatbridge, Old Monkland in Dec 1866 but I can't find any matching marriage on Scotlandspeople.
Isobel

[bellysally]

THANK YOU so much Isobel for all your information and help! I will definitely go on to Scotland's People and search for records of the Murphy family.
 The information I gave earlier in my post regarding the birth place of Mary Murphy as being Edinburgh came from a 2nd cousin of mine on the Kennedy side of the family. He lives in England (from NZ) now and has been searching the Kennedy tree for 20+ years and the last lot of information regarding the tree was in 2000 and he concentrated more on the Kennedy part and was still in very early stages when I last heard from him, on searching the Murphy/Pew/Hastie/McGlinn sides and there were no census records so more than likely Edinburgh was not the birth place of Mary Murphy. When I signed up on ancestry and used his information I did find parts were either spot on or a different place of either birth/marriage/death and addresses.
 Thank you again Isobel and I will do some searching on SP on all that you have mentioned to me.
    Cheers, Judy