Charles Small born c1857. Angus - Rescobie or Coupar Angus.

[Liviani]

Edited: I looked at the wrong passenger list initially. Have the correct information now here.

I have looked at the passenger list and agree this is probably my Great Grandfather. I will include the image below.

The departure date is 5th May 1911. This matches with the 1911 census and how it still shows Charles as in Scotland because the census was taken a month prior to this in April 1911.

None of the other C/Charles/Chas McKenzie/Mackenzie's match with professions, age or date of departure.

Surprised that the port of departure is Liverpool rather than Glasgow however. But we can see from the picture that Charles and 2 others on this list are Scottish.

I have also noticed that if you look in the far left column you can see ticket numbers and it appears that along with Charles, there is a W. McLeod and a Lizzie McLeod travelling on the same ticket. W. Mc is a Farmer and Lizzie is a domestic, they are also Scottish. In the 1911 census Charles was living with other men but none of the surnames match McLeod. Interesting as this must've been planned. I will see what else I can find out about this couple. They are either a married couple or siblings?

I suspect that with Lizzy's occupation being noted as 'domestic' rather than 'wife' as others are on this list that Lizzy would be W. McLeod's sibling?

[scotmum]

If you have time to trawl through the pages, as they aren't searchable by name, the arrival manifest for the ship is available at:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jq2/

which should provide more details and may help you confirm or rule out this chap.

[Rosinish]

As you say - paternity had already been admitted by Charles Small's name/signature on the birth cert and the fact it was registered as Small and not Ewan.  I wonder if this was for maintenance or inheritance purposes?

Just thought I'd add for the benefit of others that any illegitimate child born Scotland (where the father has signed)  will appear on the Index under both parents surnames.

Annie

[CaroleW]

Thanks Annie - I didn't know that,  so very useful info.  Just checked SP and he was indeed also registered as Charles Ewan in 1882

[Liviani]

As you say - paternity had already been admitted by Charles Small's name/signature on the birth cert and the fact it was registered as Small and not Ewan.  I wonder if this was for maintenance or inheritance purposes?

Just thought I'd add for the benefit of others that any illegitimate child born Scotland (where the father has signed)  will appear on the Index under both parents surnames.

Annie

Very useful indeed. I didn't know this either, will come in handy in the future I'm sure. Thank you.

[Liviani]

If you have time to trawl through the pages, as they aren't searchable by name, the arrival manifest for the ship is available at:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jq2/

which should provide more details and may help you confirm or rule out this chap.

I see them mentioned on page 20 with the other two people he appeared to be travelling with. They appear to be going to the same initial destination as Charles. It appears that Pipestone, Manitoba is on the way to Yorkton.



However, I notice that the profession has changed for Charles. I can't quite make out what it says but it begins with a B? It said he was a farmer on the departure lists? The profession for the person below him has changed from Farmer to Carpenter also? Perhaps an accent issue? If he had relayed it as 'fermer' I can see why a Canadian may not have grasped it correctly?

Also, it states that he has visited Canada before and that he is a 'Returning Canadian' perhaps? According to the stamp there?

All of the ages are the same.

[Liviani]

Hi everyone.

This is going to be a rather long post. I feel all the details are relevant so please bear with me.

After my recent post regarding my great-grandfather Charles McKenzie born Small in 1882 I started researching his father named on his birth cert details below.

Charles Small
Ploughman
Resident at: Sandyford, Parish of Kirriemuir.

In the 1881 census there is the following;

Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy
Adam
BALLENTINE
Servant
U
30
M
Shepherd
Lintrathen, Forfar, Scotland
Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy

John
TOSH
Servant
U
18
M
Agr Labourer
Lethnot, Forfar, Scotland
Dwelling: Little Kilmundy Bothy

Charles
SMALL
Servant (Head)
U
23
M
Agr Labourer
Rescobie, Forfar, Scotland

This is the only Charles Small in the 1881 census that matches with profession, age and location. So I believe this Charles Small above to be the correct one.

Given his age is stated as 23 in 1881 this means he must've been born in either 1857 or 1858. This is where the problems begin for me.

On searching all of Charles Smalls born in Scotland on SP in 1857 or 1858 I get nothing back at all.

This leads me to a few lines of thought - either he was born with a different name OR the age stated in the 1881 census is incorrect.

I look at who he's living with in 1881. There is a John Tosh close in age but there are no Charles Toshs born in 1857 or 1858. I get the same results with a Charles Ballentine (with fuzzy matching on).

On the RCE of my great-grandfather it states that Charles Small his father was living at Glamis Road, Forfar at the time it was written in 1883.

In 1883 a Charles Small marries a Harriet Patullo in Forfar. In 1881 Hariet was 18 years old and living in Forfar with her family.

In the 1871 census there is a 14 year old Charles Small living in Coupar Angus. He is living with his father John Small aged 57 Gardiner and his mother Margaret Small (can't make our her age). There are no other children living here, it is just the three of them. In this census it states that Charles was born in Coupar Angus not Rescobie as it states on the 1881 census. But then again I don't know if this is the same Charles

There is an 11 year old Charles Small living in Forfar with the following people in 1871.



The place of birth is correct, but the age doesn't match up with the 1881 census.

On searching births again the only two Charles Smalls born in Scotland in 1859 or 1860 were born in the parishes of Cockpen and Collessie. So again nothing is matching up with the info I'm given.

I'd really appreciate any help on the matter. SP credits are in limited supply so I want to be sure I'm spending them resourcefully. Thank you all.

[ev]

There is this one -

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYX-XVF

Marriage ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTVG-5NT




ev

[AdrianB38]

"Given his age is stated as 23 in 1881 this means he must've been born in either 1857 or 1858. This is where the problems begin for me"

I've not looked at alternatives for you, but my immediate reaction is that your first sentence there is not helping you. 1857/58 is only a starting point - at the very least you need to be looking 5y either way - I normally use +/- 10y though for someone who's only 23, an error of 10y is rather unlikely.

The other aspect is - who filled the form in? I find that servants' details on censuses are prime candidates for errors - sometimes the person compiling it (the employer?) seems not to ask his servants but writes down what he thinks is the story, so age and place of birth are what he thinks his servant once said in conversation ages ago.

As I say, I'm in no position to offer alternatives but, especially if you can't find someone with those exact details, you need to widen your search criteria.