Need help with a Witham Family

[peakoverload]

This is a bit long and complicated as the family is rather large.

My 3x Great Grandfather was William Foster who was born in 1816 in Witham. Fortunately for me, William was a very wealthy and well known person and so there are lots of documents and newspaper articles that tell me a lot about him.

His father was a John Foster who I know was a cordwainer and had a shop in Witham. I know this through a title deed where William Foster owned all the toll roads in the Rochford one Hundred. I also know that he had a brother also called John Foster who was a victualler in Hadleigh from the same document.

From William Fosters will I know he had another brother called Henry Foster, a sister called Elizabeth (because he left money to one of her daughters who he referred to as a niece, Elizabeth wasn't named in the will as she had already died).

So knowing that William was born in Witham to a shoemaker called John I searched for baptisms and found one, that being a baptism on 12/04/1816 at St. Nicholas Church in Witham for a William Foster where the father was John Foster, Shoemaker. The mothers name is listed as Martha.


Searching for baptism for John Foster (the brother) I find a baptism for a John True Foster also in St. Nicholas Church, Witham on 23/09/1810 and again the father is John Foster and the mother Martha. Later research suggests that his middle name was actually Trew and he did indeed become a victualler thus matching the information I already know.

Searching for baptisms for Elizabeth Foster I find a baptism again in St. Nicholas Church, Witham on 30/12/1818 and the father is John Foster, his occupation is a cordwainer but this time the mothers name is listed as Patty, not Martha.

I then opened up the search to look for any children born to a John Foster and either a Martha or Patty in the Witham area and found the following:

Eliza Ann Foster baptised 11/03/1807 in St. Nicholas Church, Witham, father John Foster, mother Martha (no indication of fathers occupation)

Sarah Eleanor Foster baptised 30/12/1808 in St. Nicholas Church, Witham, father John Foster, mother Martha (no indication of fathers occupation)

Mary Foster baptised 10/05/1814 in St. Nicholas Church, Witham, father John Foster shoemaker , mother Patty

Jane Foster baptised 21/01/1821 in St. Nicholas Church, Witham, father John Foster (actually written as Forster) Cordwainer , mother Martha

Henry Osborne Foster baptised 25/07/1827 in St. Nicholas Church, Witham, father John Foster, Cordwainer, mother Patty

Robert Foster baptised 07/04/1830 in St. Nicholas Church, Witham, father John Foster, Cordwainer, mother Patty

So a mixture of Martha and Patty but all baptised in the same church and when a fathers occupation is given, it's always a cordwainer or shoemaker.

I'm trying to prove that either Martha and Patty are the same person or that they are not and it just so happens that there were two separate John Fosters living in Witham at that time but I'm struggling to find conclusive evidence either way.

The first census that John Foster (the father) appears on is the 1841 census HO/107/337/16 Page 27 where he is living with Patty, Mary, Robert and Jane. If Jane on this census is the same Jane as in the baptism then here the census suggests the mother is Patty but the baptism says Martha.

Unfortunately Patty or Martha dies in 1847 and the death certificate gives her name as Martha saying that she is the wife of John Foster, Shoemaker.

John the father seems to disappear a bit at this stage and the only match I can find on the 1851 census is in Gillingham, Kent where he is listed as a lodger but also as a shoemaker HO 107 1611

In 1861 he is back in Terling RG 9 1108 again as a lodger and Shoemaker.

I've searched trade directories for Witham shoemakers and cordwainers to see if there were two John Fosters listed in the area but haven't been able to find anything nor have I been able to find any alternative census returns for a John Foster with a Martha instead of Patty.

I can't find anything to suggest they are not the same person but equally I cannot explain why two very different names are interchanged so freely. I did find one website that suggested that Patty was a known name variation of Martha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_(given_name) and this link also appears in the Wikipedia page for the name Martha but I don't know whether to trust that or not, it just doesn't sound like the typical name variation that people would come up with.

Anyone know if Patty is a variation of Martha or know of any other ways I could try to prove one way or the other if they are the same person.

[Jolee]

I could not see a marriage for John Foster in Witham but I found a marriage at St James Clerkenwell Middlesex between John Foster and Patty Chappell 13/05/1806. Could this be them

[olleym]

Do you know where Martha Foster died in 1847?


Mark

[olleym]

Trew is a family name common in Witham around this time, as it was used as a given name for the 1st born male , I wonder if this was Martha's surname.

Mark

[olleym]

https://www.behindthename.com/name/patty

[amondg]

Could this be William's grandfather?
Will written 22 September 1755, probated 19 May 1758
John Foster Victualler of Braintree leaves everything equally between his son John Foster and Sarah Trew his intended wife.
Sarah Foster formerly Trew probates the will 1758 with John Foster his son.

Ref D/ABW 99/2/30 Essex Record Office.
Obviously he was previously married to have a son John and did marry Sarah Trew before 1758, it would explain the name John True Foster being given to a grandchild.

Sorry doesn't help with the Patty/Martha question

[peakoverload]

Jolee Wrote:

I could not see a marriage for John Foster in Witham but I found a marriage at St James Clerkenwell Middlesex between John Foster and Patty Chappell 13/05/1806. Could this be them

Yes that is the marriage I have for them. I can't say for certain if it is them but it's the only John and Patty marriage in the right time frame that I could find. As for why they married in London I don't know. All I can say is that a number of their children also married in London despite living in Leigh-On-Sea, Rayleigh, Witham and the surrounding area.

Olleym wrote:

Do you know where Martha Foster died in 1847?

Yes, she died in Rayleigh

Olleym wrote:

Trew is a family name common in Witham around this time, as it was used as a given name for the 1st born male , I wonder if this was Martha's surname.

Yes I noticed that surname a lot when searching through the ERO records. Unfortunately I believe that Martha/Patty's surname was Chappell from a marriage record I found (see above). It did make me wonder if Trew was her mothers maiden name, I believe her mother was called Sarah and her father William but I know nothing else about them other than, if they are indeed my Patty's mother, they also had two other children, Sarah Chappell b07/11/1777 and William Chappell b24/01/1780 d1851

amondg wrote:

Could this be William's grandfather?
Will written 22 September 1755, probated 19 May 1758
John Foster Victualler of Braintree leaves everything equally between his son John Foster and Sarah Trew his intended wife.
Sarah Foster formerly Trew probates the will 1758 with John Foster his son.

Ref D/ABW 99/2/30 Essex Record Office.
Obviously he was previously married to have a son John and did marry Sarah Trew before 1758, it would explain the name John True Foster being given to a grandchild.

I don't think so, or at least I'm not sure. William's father was John Foster the problem is that on every census he appears on, he gives a different place of birth.

On the 1841 census his age suggests he was born in 1783 and his place of birth is simply given as Essex
On the 1851 census his age suggests he was born in 1793 and his place of birth is given as Chelmsford
On the 1861 census his age suggests he was born in 1790 and his place of birth is given as Rochford


The only census I'm 100% sure is correct is the 1841 census.

The 1851 matches for name, occupation, that he's now a widow but I can't explain why he is in Gillingham, Kent

The 1861 census matches for name, occupation and he is back in the Witham area (Terling) so where I would expect him to be but age and place of birth don't match the other two census even taking into account that the 1841 census was within 5 years for ages.

I'm tried searching for baptisms for John in and around Chelmsford and Rochford and the only ones I found were:

A baptism in 1788 in Blackmore
A baptism in 1794 in Woodham Mortimer

Both Blackmore and Woodham Mortimer are reasonably close to Chelmsford with Woodham Mortimer being closest but Rochford isn't close to either or to Chelmsford. The baptism of 1788 in Blackmore also matches the age on the death certficate.

I know that John Foster died in 1870 in the Rochford Union Workhouse (by that time a hospital) and tracing the John Foster born in 1874 in Woodham Mortimer revealed that he was still alive in 1871 and was not a shoemaker which I know my John Foster was. Therefore the 1794 baptism cannot be correct. That only leaves the 1788 baptism and if that is correct, and there is no guarantee that it is, then his parents were John Foster and Mary Bolton and that John Foster died in 1831 but was born in 1755.

Again if John Foster (grandfather) and Mary Bolton were the parents than I think his parents were Gilbert Foster and Catherine but that is based on a baptism for John Foster (grandfather) I found in Ingatestone on 12/11/1760. If that is correct and if he was in fact born 1755 (based on his age at death) than that means he was baptised aged 5. With child mortality so high back then I wouldn't have thought many parents would have waited so long to get their child baptised unless they simply could not afford to.

[olleym]

deleted

[StevieSteve]

Hi

A birth span of 24 years is enough to raise questions to my mind. I don't think you mention Patty' s date of birth or age at death but from the other Chappell baptisms it seems she might have been too old for the 1830 child.

John Foster the son was old enough to have the last two and there is a gap between Jane and Henry. Is that  impossible - and have you looked for a Foster Osborne marriage?