John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.

[Moffitt77]

Re MICHAEL Joyce

MARRIAGE;
25 December 1838, St Ives, Cornwall
Michael JOYCE, Bachelor, Mariner, Father JOHN a Mariner
Mary Ann HOLLOW, Spinster, Father DANIEL a Fisherman

1841 under Joice, Michael/Mary and Son John, are living next door to Her Parents.

1851 as you probably know Michael is born c 1816 Youghall, Ireland

Trish, this has set me thinking, along with your last post. I did not know that Michael was born in Youghall. I realised that, as a mariner, he moved around a great deal, and so too did his father, John Joyce. The children of sailors were often born in different parts of the globe.

This is just conjecture, but so also was John Joyce of Beckington a mariner. You can see where I am heading. John Joyce of Beckington was in the Royal Navy in his youth, Nelson's Fleet. I have recorded a John Joyce aboard some five HMS ships and has wife was Mary. (National Archives, and London Gazette) For his service aboard HMS Phoebe in a sea battle with La Nereide on 22 December 1747, he was awarded a Naval General Medal in 1797. (Find a Grave)

Your mention of the name Brooks as the name of the wife of the possible father of the William Joyce who married Anna Wace Joyce was also productive. This is because that name enters the lineage of John Joyce, mariner, father of Michael Joyce, and grandfather of John Joyce, born St Ives 1839

This Michael Joyce was known in New Zealand as Captain Michael Joyce, of Constitution Street, Port Chalmers. The ship he had built was called the 'Arc' which he used around the coasts of New Zealand. He could have travelled further but I have not researched that. Mary Ann (Hollow) Joyce died in NZ 14 June 1866. There was another son Michael (1846-1882, aged 38)

In 1868, Captain Michael Joyce remarried, to Elizabeth Jane BROOKS. At least two babies were stillborn sons, and their only daughter, Mary Ann, died young (1871-1892) One son, Michael Buckley Joyce, born 1873 survived. I thought this to be a mistake of mine, but this son was referred to always as Buckley.

This is a link, although a tenuous one to the family of William Joyce, husband of Anna Wace Joyce, but worth looking at. Mary Ann Brooks was the daughter of Benjamin Brooks (of Keeward? Where is that?) and Elizabeth Jane Brooks was the daughter of 'The late pilot Robert Brooks of Plymouth' they may have been of different generations but both had babies and they used familiar family names for them. Anna and William had William Brooks Joyce 1870 and Mary Eliza Brooks 1870.

The comment about the widowed mother of William Joyce being present in his home suggests a parentage of William Joyce, yeoman, and Mary Gibbs, 20 April 1797 Beckington, another possibility being William Joyce and Mary Hudder.

John Joyce, b1839 followed his father, Captain Michael Joyce, to sea as a boy and then into the Water Police in Australia before they came to New Zealand. Here he studied and practised Law and ultimately became Member of Parliament for Lyttelton. He is well documented in the Cyclopoedia of New Zealand.

Was my great grandfather, James Parker Joyce, another son of Michael, perhaps. If one son followed his father to NZ, why not another? Was Michael Joyce, Mariner, another son of John Joyce, mariner, of Beckington?

[trish1120]

I have had another quick read over all you have posted Moffitt77.

It is obvious you have done a lot of research into various Joyce Families.

I asked you earlier what was on James Parker Joyces NZ Certs which you never really answered.

Some where amongst all you postings, maybe a reply to someone else, didnt you say a a Cert has his Father as James?

[ShaunJ]

Bear in mind that he may have changed his name along the way. Have you found any record of a James Parker Joyce prior to his marriage in 1861? Or any record of someone of that name arriving in Australia or New Zealand?

[Moffitt77]

I have had another quick read over all you have posted Moffitt77.

It is obvious you have done a lot of research into various Joyce Families.

I asked you earlier what was on James Parker Joyces NZ Certs which you never really answered.

Some where amongst all you postings, maybe a reply to someone else, didnt you say a a Cert has his Father as James?

Thank you for reading all of that, Trish.

Both certificates are difficult to explain. Initially the birth certificate was hard to obtain. I located it, after three tries, by asking for it under his mother's MAIDEN name, Lammas. It has since gone through a number of changes. Initially my grandfather's official surname was that of his birth father, James Joyce. Upon BDM noticing that also written on the registration form was that the child's mother was the wife of T (or J) Griffin, the child's surname then became Griffin. For the rest of his life
that child used his stepfather's surname on all official documents.

I debate this change, because there no evidence of the existence of this man, and the note has been added to the registration in a different hand, with no signature or explanation (actually required in NZ) I think that the name Griffin was an alias used by a very young girl to enable her to be where she was. I have been unable to find any evidence of the 'marriage'. It is my opinion that the lack of a full name for Griffin adds to the non-validity of the change. I have found relevant notes about a person who could fit the situation, but he is elusive.

A second child appears when searched for under her mother's maiden name, but incorrectly as Lammis, a further indication that there was no first marriage. The birth father was the future husband of her mother. Some years later a message appeared in a New Zealand paper searching for my great grandmother under her maiden name of Lammas. Family in Australia knew that she had gone to NZ and the general area she was to be found, again indicating no marriage.

The death certificate is also difficult. My grandfather's surname and that of his 'father' is stated to be that of his stepfather. The one variation which indicates family knowledge of irregularity is that his father's forename was JAMES.

Other men named James Joyce have been eliminated. There are many indications that we have found the correct one.

[Moffitt77]

Bear in mind that he may have changed his name along the way. Have you found any record of a James Parker Joyce prior to his marriage in 1861? Or any record of someone of that name arriving in Australia or New Zealand?

Yes, there are many, including for all information that appeared in the obituary. His movements were well documented.

There are some that are of particular interest to me, including those such as the stock droving, advertised frequently as offered by James Joyce and George Mills, Clutha Ferry, Otago Witness, 14 Jan 1859. This has special significance for me, because it is evidence of family connections. Mills was the name of my grandfather's aunt, also there at the time.

There are many references to James Joyce as the publican of Mr Joyce's Royal Hotel in Kingston (eg Wakatipu Mail 10 June 1863) I cannot find it right now, but there is one reference to the owner/publican as being James Parker Joyce (perhaps Wakatipu Mail 6 May 1863. I will check this when I leave this site) Generally, though the middle name is left out, but it is clear that he is the right person.

Hard to prove to you, but my great grandmother was a singer, and it would appear that she was a part of a popular musical group (under the name of, variously, Miss, Mrs, M, or Martha Griffin) and this group performed at the Royal Hotel above on frequent occasions. Martha sang at public gatherings for the rest of her life, as Mrs Moffitt.

In particular the notes about his work and management of Tuturau Station indicate a close family tie. They were very clannish. John Turnbull took over the ownership in 1861, and JPJ stayed on as manager, until the gold fever of 1862 when he became a Waggoner from Invercargill to Longford (Gore). John Turnbull was the father of Helen Turnbull who married James Moffitt. He was the brother of my step great grandfather, George Moffitt.

The four Moffitt brothers, James, John, George, and Michael are recorded as mining the next gold claim above that of the Joyce Party which was as I have listed in an earlier post, including James and Michael Joyce. The Joyce gold strike is mentioned in the Otago Daily Times of 1 May 1863. The Bracken's Hotel mentioned belonged to the man who composed the words for our National Anthem. There were many men to become notable after the gold rushes in NZ!

It is hard to know at what point the name Parker was actually part of his name. I don't think middle names were very often used in early New Zealand. The use of a middle name would be something that I would expect him to use as his position of importance grew, especially as he was the one to report the gold bearing land to Invercargill papers.

I have never thought to search for a connection of Jane Caydzien (b1838? Denmark) to explain Parker. Her father was John Caydzien, Denmark, and her mother was Jane Ferrier. Jane came to New Zealand aboard the ship Jura in 1858, with William Caydzien, who appeared in the list to be a husband, but who was probably her brother. I have not researched that further.

The death certificate gives his name as James Parker Joyce, and also that of his father as James Parker Joyce, journalist. It would seem strange if Jane, who died 25 November 1821, would include those details if the name Parker came with her marriage??? I think he revealed his middle name when he stopped wanting to remain ordinary, like most working men of the time.

Sorry it is so long.

[Moffitt77]

I forgot to mention that there were numerous of the name James Joyce to come to New Zealand. Amongst many, I liked, for a while, the ship Joseph Fletcher, 18 August 1859, because it matched the time in NZ of 44 years. I trust the words of Herries Beattie, historian, and others who claim that he was in NZ from 1857, which seems to me to fit better.

He was in Australia previously, and I have not had the finances to research that period fully yet. I have wondered if it matched the time Michael Joyce and his son, John, were in Australia. Financial excuses aside, I have got myself too involved in possible British origins to do the Australia part properly, except to note, briefly, the two convicts mentioned earlier.

[Moffitt77]

Other details in 'The Dictionary of NZ Biography and in Southern Runs' by Herries Beattie show that he knew James Joyce in documents to be the same person as James Parker Joyce before 1862:

James Parker Joyce:-

Born 1835, Southampton, educated there, and entered the Customs Service. (Dict)

1855 EMIGRATED to Australia 1855 (Dict)

1858 Southland (Dict)

Stockman on Tuturau Sttion in which he bought a share. (Dict)

Was in Mataura(Gore) New Zealand in 1857 - Herries Beattie (probably droving stock)

Was a stockman and at Tuturau Sttation from 1857 to 1862 - Herries Beattie (Which he managed for various owners, managed for Turnbull etc)

1862 onwards - waggoning to the diggings, storekeeping. HERRIES Beattie

Herries Beattie also gives JPJ's birth at 1835.

So it would appear that most of the mentions of James Joyce in early papers in the area would refer to him, with other knowledge applied.

[Moffitt77]

Annette7

Is it confirmed that all of the children were born in Beckington?

Since John Joyce was a mariner, I wondered if some of the children were born in other ports. For example when he was retired from his ship, HMS Atlas (1779-1800 service) he was discharged to Plymouth quarters on 25 January 1800.

It could be that it was only when he gave up the sea and set about becoming a successful Woollen Merchant that he took an interest in persuading his children to be baptised.

I say successful, because he had, from memory, £750 in railway shares. - The London Gazette.

[ShaunJ]

it could be that it was only when he gave up the sea and set about becoming a successful Woollen Merchant that he took an interest in persuading his children to be baptised.

John Joyce and his wife were evidently members of the Baptist church (they are buried in the Baptist Chapel Burial Ground) which rejects infant baptism.