Johnson travelling showmen

[lesleyhannah]

Was Annie from a travelling family or did she just marry into one.

I'm totally new to the world of travellers but I'm told the Shaws were/are a well-known traveller family - the occupations in the censuses back this up, as do some of the marriages. As I say, this fact had never been mentioned to my son-in-law. We don't know whether this was deliberate on George Arthur's part, however he seems to have been passed between relatives as a child so maybe he knew very little about his background. It's all very interesting - and a great change from the framework knitters and ag labs in my own tree!

[BashLad]

I'm not  sure about the shaws being travellers.

Barnabas Shaw, c1813-1856 (son of Thomas). Warehouseman
Mary

Margaret Elizabeth SHAW c1834-
George Alfred SHAW c1838 -
Joshua William SHAW 1838-1857
Caroline Matilda SHAW c1846-
Ann burman SHAW 1849
*

Class: HO107; Piece: 2220; Folio: 906; Page: 21 - the shaw's in 1851 - good luck with it though - it's one of the water damaged ones.

All basically born Huddersfield area and then living in Manchester from 1851 onwards.
*no doubt more - these are just the ones i stumbled on.

[BashLad]

in 1891 George Arthur Shaw (b in the workhouse) is living with his mother's sister Caroline Scott and her husband in Salford.
6 Feb 1892 • he married Emily Crofts in Salford, Lancashire   -
Soon afterwards he moved to London where Emily came from - and apparently never mentioned his traveller roots - family believed they had always lived in east end.

I've ordered a couple of certificates as a result of the suggestions here. Am still working through the references. Thank you all very much

I'm glad you said this because I wasn''t certain I had the right family.

That George arthur shaw, as you say, 1881 with mother, 1891 with aunt. 1901 & 1911 in london.

Pity can't seem to find any of them in 1871.

[Maiden Stone]

Where were Richard and Annie in 1881, the year before their marriage? Do either have children with them? Young Richard (1878) should have been somewhere.

A few snippets I noticed when following Thomas & Margaret Chapman & children which may give pointers to Richard's families.
1861 census: Their eldest child, baby Ellen was not with the Johnson household.
1881 census Lincolnshire:  Show van in Blue Lion Yard.  5 of 7 children born Manchester. 1 b. Birkenhead, Cheshire, and youngest, Norah, b. Ireland. Norah is an Irish name. It may have been a short form of another name. A quick search of Irish civil births brought up no matches.
1891 census Glamorgan: Margaret Chapman, widow + children all show- people. Norah's POB Killanney or Killarney, Ireland. There's a place-name Killaney in Co. Down. There was a David Chapman resident there on 1901 & 1911 Irish census. (Thomas & Margaret Chapman had a son David.)
1901 census: All 3 Chapman sons were showmen. Henry was back in Lancashire, with a wife b. Worcestershire. Thomas was in Yorkshire + wife b. Middlesex. Their 3 children were born Lancs. & Yorks. Thomas was proprietor of an "Aunt Sally" booth. David + Cambridgeshire-born wife were in County Durham, with a travelling shooting gallery. Another David Chapman of similar age was a showman in Blackpool. This 2nd David Chapman had POB Middlesex + Canadian wife.
                       

[lesleyhannah]

1871 Annie working as seamstress in Hulme Class: RG10/4001/34 p 7
George Arthur living with relatives 1871 Hulme described as orphan nephew.

Daughter Caroline's marriage cert calls her father Barnabas a traveller. Barnabas's death certificate says he was a salesman "woollen goods" (including the quotation marks). Oddly, on George Arthur's marriage certificate he gives his father as William, a traveller. This is the only reference to his father I can find. Quite a few of the family are described as hawkers.

[lesleyhannah]

Thanks for that information maidenstone. When I finally get the Chapman marriage certificate it will be invaluable.

I'm in a meltdown at the moment. My son had sent me a link to his raw dna results. I couldn't make head nor tail of them and to cut a long story short I ended up deleting software that needs a code to reinstall - and I haven't got it. Am going to abandon computer for today, and hope one of my sons can sort it out. Fortunately the internet still works!

[Maiden Stone]

Maidenstone, where did you get the info about the Chapman's circus in Blackpool please?

Chapman's Circus was mentioned by BashLad on page 2, not by me. The David Chapman who was in Blackpool in 1901 was a "showman Exhib." and was a worker (employed by someone else?) according to census. No mention of circus. He may have been working at an amusement booth. Younger son Eric, 3, b. Blackpool. Birth Eric Chapman 1898, Blackpool, mmn. Balshaw. I'd speculated that with the name, POB + occupation it was worth mentioning him, in case he was a relative of Thomas Chapman. Also I thought the Canadian wife was interesting. Did they meet in Britain, Canada or elsewhere? Where did they marry? This was the era of Buffalo Bill's Wild West shows.
                                       ****************

So Annie was with her son George Arthur in 1881. No little Annie?
                                           ************
Just a random thought about names. Richard Johnson's younger brother was Alexander. That imo, is a name with Scottish connotations. Again, possible Irish connections - Ulster-Scots.

[Maiden Stone]

Thanks for that information maidenstone. When I finally get the Chapman marriage certificate it will be invaluable.

Do you mean marriage certificate of Thomas Chapman & Margaret Johnson for marriage at St. Peter, Bolton, 1859? It won't give any more information than is available free on wonderful Lancashire OPC.

[lesleyhannah]

Well, the certificates came - Maiden stone you were right about the information not adding to anything given here (I've never used the Lancashire link as none of my ancestors came from Lancs) but we've now proved the traveller credentials which leaves son in law bemused as to why none of this was ever mentioned by his mum or granddad who he was very close to.
Richard Johnson's 1st marriage to Elizabeth Ely lasted a very short time - he was a widower when he married Annie Burnham Shaw. I'd like to find Richard in 1881 and will now look for Elizabeth's death. And wonder what happened to Richard's children? Should keep me busy for the foreseeable future.
We've decided son in law's obsession with campervans is all in the genes
Thank you all again for this help.